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My goal is to build a bad-ass android space warrior who focuses on two-handed ranged weapons. I also care about starship battles a moderate amount.
I am running these comparisons at levels 1-3 since I play PFS and I don't want to wait three months for my character to be able to do his thing.
Because I am modelling my character on HK-47 of Starwars fame I am limited to the solider or the exocortex mechanic because of android stat bonuses.
At level 1, the solider does a bit more damage, and has a little worse skills, so that balances out. However at level 2, the mechanic gets the overcharge trick that lets him add +1d6 to his own damage and +1d6 to an energy weapon using ally's damage.
To compare, the solider deals 1d10 damage with the laser cannon, has +1 more BaB, an extra feat and +2 to hit enemies in cover. The solider will also have 2 points more resolve since his key attribute is dex instead of int. +1 stamina and health per level
The exocortex mechanic does not need to full attack to get most of his damage. By using overcharge he get to attack with no penalties for 1d8+1d6 all the time. He can even boost an ally's damage every turn. Since he also does not need to full attack, he can use his move action to freely activate combat tracking or get into better positions. And this comparison is ignoring that the mechanic has a better skill list then the solider.
The combat benefits that the sharpshooter solider has over the mechanic are:
1. You can use kinetic weapons, which let you bypass dr more easily by stocking special ammo
2. The kinetic weapon gear-boost gives +2 damage at level 4, which is nice.
3. If you use laser weapons, between the +2 to hit vs cover +1 laser gear boost you basically get to full attack at full BaB
4. Heavy weapons scale better; though this only comes online at level 6 or 7 and you only get 1 point more over the long arms.
5. More feats, though there are not really any combat feats that excite me honestly. Most of them seem to be better for melee characters.
6. grenade launcher?
All of these benefits seem like they just put the solider on par with the mechanic and don't make him a better damage dealer as the class description would imply. Plus they only really come online later in the game.
Is there something else I am missing? It feels like the mechanic is more useful out of combat, hits more accurately and just as hard as the solider and can buff your teammates.
My theoretical builds for hardish numbers:
Android Solider 4
sharpshooter
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 12, Cha 8
HP/SP: 32/28, resolve 6
feats: Skill Focus(pilot), Weapon focus, Deadly aim, Quick draw?
gearboost: laser accuracy
To hit: +10 -- 1d10 + 4 Fire
deadly aim: +8 -- 1d10 + 6 Fire
full attack: +6/+6 -- 1d10 + 4 Fire
both: +4/+4 -- 1d10 + 6 Fire
DPRs vs EAC 14:
normal: 0.85*9.5 + 0.05*9.5 => 8.55
deadly aim: 0.75*11.5 + 0.05*11.5 => 9.2
full attack: 2*(0.65*9.5 + 0.05*9.5) => 13.3
both: 2*(0.55*11.5 + 0.05*11.5) => 13.8
Android Mechanic 4
exocortex
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 14, Cha 8
HP/SP: 28/24, resolve 4
feats: Skill Focus(pilot), weapon focus, Deadly aim
tricks: Overcharge, Overclock?
To hit (combat tracking): +9 -- 1d8 + 1d6 + 4 Fire
deadly aim (combat tracking): +7 -- 1d8 + 1d6 + 5 Fire
DPRs vs EAC 14:
normal, no tracking: 0.75*11 + 0.05*11 => 8.8
normal: 0.80*11 + 0.05*11 => 9.35
deadly aim: 0.70*12 + 0.05*12 => 9
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It's a fun analysis, thanks for putting it together. My initial random thoughts:
-It's nice that they are close enough together in power that you could play either one for the flavor without feeling like you were picking a clearly inferior option.
-Seems like most important thing for you is DPR, but also worth noting the Soldier seems significantly more survivable with 4/4 more HP and 2 more Resolve Points to play with. You also can't use Heavy Armor as your Mechanic with 12 Strength, not sure if that was factored in.
-Lots of competition for Mechanic's Move action: Need it for Combat Tracking, Overcharge ally, moving, reloading (which will be more often if you are using 3x the ammo commonly for Overcharges). May be some scenarios where expected DPR drops because you can't do all the things each turn.
-I haven't played yet, so it's all theoretical, but I imagine Cover is going to be used a lot more (and will be a lot more detrimental with fewer ways to get +Hit) in SF than PF. Getting a +2 for it may be significant.
-I didn't realize that Overcharge could be used as a Move action for your ally. Was just a cool thing to learn, it's a very neat ability. One thing that confuses me in the wording is the phrase "You can *instead*...". Makes it sound like it's an either/or thing, although there is no specified limitation. Would have thought they would say "You can also" or "In addition" to be clear that you could use both the Standard and Move portions on the same turn.
-Agree on the usefulness out of combat thing. Mechanic is very flavorful that way, and dont know an extra Skill Focus feat or two is gonna make up the difference for Soldier.
It's a fun analysis, thanks for putting it together. My initial random thoughts:
Thanks! Doing this analysis made me realize I was undervaluing the soldier's full attack dpr :)
-Seems like most important thing for you is DPR, but also worth noting the Soldier seems significantly more survivable with 4/4 more HP and 2 more Resolve Points to play with. You also can't use Heavy Armor as your Mechanic with 12 Strength, not sure if that was factored in.
I was intending to use light armor regardless since my Dex will be really high. Though I have not allocated my theme point, so that is an option.
-Lots of competition for Mechanic's Move action: Need it for Combat Tracking, Overcharge ally, moving, reloading (which will be more often if you are using 3x the ammo commonly for Overcharges). May be some scenarios where expected DPR drops because you can't do all the things each turn.
Ah, but if the mechanic loses his move action, he can still overcharge, where the solider can't full attack. I even see this as an upside since that makes the mechanic more interesting to play.
The mechanic actually uses fewer charges per turn. It costs him 3 for each shot, but the soldier's cannon uses 2 per shot and he is full attacking for 4 charges per turn.
-I haven't played yet, so it's all theoretical, but I imagine Cover is going to be used a lot more (and will be a lot more detrimental with fewer ways to get +Hit) in SF than PF. Getting a +2 for it may be significant.
That's a good point. I may be undervaluing the +2 to hit.
-Agree on the usefulness out of combat thing. Mechanic is very flavorful that way, and dont know an extra Skill Focus feat or two is gonna make up the difference for Soldier.
Ya, I've not even really said anything about the mechanic's better skill list. The fact that the skill focus is flexible lets you cover gaps in SFS. Have an operative with pilot focus? switch to computers. No party face? Switch to diplomacy. Etc...
Still a solider with skill focus (pilot) and max dex has the same bonus to his piloting as an operative with skill focus. So that works for me.
I thought being Exocortex automatically gets the Heavy Armor Proficiency without needing to meet the Str requirement.
It gives you the proficiency but I am not sure if you could actually wear the armor if your str was to low even though you in theory understand how to use it.
That's correct. If you gain profiency through a feat, you need the STR, because it is a prereq to have and to use the feat.
The exocortex just grants proficiency, not as a bonus feat, so there is no STR requirement.
The feat section states you still must meet prerequisite to use feats.
Hammerjack- I don't think that works. There are no rules for proficiency except the feats. It's just an alternate way of writing the same thing.
Voss, I am aware of what the feat section says.
The beginning of the class section and page 242, in combat say that classes grant proficiency. I do not see anything saying that the granted proficiency is a feat, instead of just being the effect of the feat.
I think, by strict RAW, that your reading the limitation as applying to class granted proficiency is incorrect. Please let me know if there is another passage you were thinking of that may clarify things further.
The feat section states you still must meet prerequisite to use feats.
Hammerjack- I don't think that works. There are no rules for proficiency except the feats. It's just an alternate way of writing the same thing.
If you were to use the feat, yes. But proficiency do not require prerequisites. So Exo doesn't need STR req to wear heavy. Page 59 under Armor Proficiency.
The feat section states you still must meet prerequisite to use feats.
That's incorrect. If you gain a feat without needing to meet the prerequisites, then you don't need to meet the prerequisites to use the feat. It would be ridiculous otherwise.
I don't see an odd ability score bonus in this build (from Theme). Assuming your theme doesn't give Con or Cha, you can get yourself Str 13 with the above build and just not worry about it.
The feat section states you still must meet prerequisite to use feats.That's incorrect. If you gain a feat without needing to meet the prerequisites, then you don't need to meet the prerequisites to use the feat. It would be ridiculous otherwise.
Voss is right about that, Cyrad. The beginning of the feat chapter says that if you have a feat but lose the prerequisites, you cannot use the feat.
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The feat section states you still must meet prerequisite to use feats.That's incorrect. If you gain a feat without needing to meet the prerequisites, then you don't need to meet the prerequisites to use the feat. It would be ridiculous otherwise.
I guess it is ridiculous then. The pre-requisite's section in the feats chapter states that if you don't meet the requirements you don't lose the feat but you can't use the feat until you meet the pre-Req again
I guess it is ridiculous then. The pre-requisite's section in the feats chapter states that if you don't meet the requirements you don't lose the feet but you can't use the feat until you meet the pre-Req againThe feat section states you still must meet prerequisite to use feats.That's incorrect. If you gain a feat without needing to meet the prerequisites, then you don't need to meet the prerequisites to use the feat. It would be ridiculous otherwise.
They may be referring to if you suffer something like a stat drain or damage. You qualified fer the feat and got it, but something f-ed yer stat that was prereq, you lose feat till ya meet it again.
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Could we possibly not derail this thread into feat prerequisites? There is already a thread for that and it has no relevance to the solider vs mechanic debate since both of them are probably using light armor.
Voss is right about that, Cyrad. The beginning of the feat chapter says that if you have a feat but lose the prerequisites, you cannot use the feat.The feat section states you still must meet prerequisite to use feats.That's incorrect. If you gain a feat without needing to meet the prerequisites, then you don't need to meet the prerequisites to use the feat. It would be ridiculous otherwise.
That text only applies if you had to meet the prerequisites in the first place. If you gained the feat explicitly without having to meet the prerequisites, then you ignore them entirely. You cannot lose the prerequisites if you never had to meet them in the first place.
This is how prerequisite-ignoring bonus feats work in both Pathfinder and 3.5e. Both those games have almost the exact same language in their sections describing how prerequisites work.
Sorry. Tis my fault.
On topic, I vote Exocortex due to the Exocortex Mods at lvl 7 adds a flavor I see HK 47 upgrading himself to have, like jetpacks. Also its hacking abilities seem like a skill HK 47 might have (at least on my files in KOTOR).
But soldier has more murderbot feel with some of the archetypes. Bombard and sharpshooter come to mind fer best types to match the assassinbot's combat skills.
I would consider using the heavy armor, though, even with high dexterity, because dex-capped light armor will often still be a few points of ac behind dex-capped heavy armor, and because a wider array of armor mods could give more if an upgraded robot feel.
I would also favor the mechanic, because of the drone mod slot, for that same effect.
I think the soldier is better for combat, but the mechanic gets a lot of great skill monkey and utility options. It's a trade off.
I would go with Mechanic - you'll be able to do more both in and out of combat than the Soldier will early on. And even at later levels (I know you were focusing on 1-3 but I did look ahead to double-check) there isn't much that will compliment a Sharpshooter in the other fighting styles by level 9 that'd make it -as worth it- as mechanic will be by that point.