Think you could post some more detailed play data? I think people would be interested in what choices you made/maybe a general idea of what the party was like, and also what they were up against. I know I would be interested. If you have the time of course.
I would second that as well. I'm going to play my Vesk regardless, but more information is always welcome.
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With a tactical pike
Why do you keep insisting on purchasing level 2 equipment at character generation? It's great if your GM lets you do this, but it is not going to be universally applied that all GMs allow level 2 equipment on level 1 characters at character generation.
You are not quite taking into account that the lower Strength results in both a lower attack bonus and a lower damage bonus
False. I did take that into account. it amounts to killing something 1 round quicker.
Putting down enemies helps a character survive
I never said otherwise. What I did say was that the difference isn't to the degree where we should all rip the solarion from our books and burn it in effigy.
I could have both: soldier (blitz) 1/solarian 19, or soldier (blitz) 3/solarian 17.
Seriously. This is your third or fourth thread spouting the same nonsense. Knock it off.
His argument is very similar to the one that frequents 5th Edition, where "almost anyone is better off dipping 1-2 levels in Fighter".
Yes, it buys you a tremendous amount that would otherwise be either very painful or near impossible to get, and depending on your playstyle may well be a massive improvement. No, it isn't mandatory as there may be class abilities/spells that you want ASAP, even at the cost of the Fighter/Soldier perks.
He is correct about dipping soldier getting you massive benefits.
He is incorrect about it being the only/best way to play. It depends on priorities.
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He is correct about dipping soldier getting you massive benefits.
He is incorrect about it being the only/best way to play. It depends on priorities.
He is no more or less correct now then he was 3 threads ago. My issue isn't with whether he's right or wrong, but the fact he's spent literal RL days (if not weeks) harping on about it and threadcrapping.
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Doing a little bit more damage is not necessarily an important factor. It depends on the HP of the target.
If something has 10 HP and Guy 1 does an average of 5 damage and Guy 2 does an average of 6 damage, there is no difference in how quickly you'll kill him.
This is why the best 5e damage chart has KPR (Kills Per Round) rather than DPR, which takes into consideration the average AC, HP, and other factors per level, and then repeats the analysis across every single level so you can see how the comparison plays out.
All this analysis done at level 1 or even select levels is kind of useless.
And even with KPR, it's still lacking some important analysis on its own, but I'll not get into that right now.
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Strength 14 and Weapon Focus will almost always have accuracy and damage issues compared to Strength 18 and Weapon Focus.
I have never been a fan of Intelligence 8; it means being unable to take 10 on Intelligence-based skills to hit DC 10 and have common knowledge. Furthermore, having only 3 skill ranks per level is pathetic.
A level in soldier (blitz) beforehand still looks like the way to go.
If I remember your thread correctly, you were overkilling the to-hit part of the gane (statistically more than enough to hit , I think you said) but you failed several INT and CHA skills, and died because of a lack of resolve.
This build does not overkill in combat (just kill, without the over-), is better at diplomacy, (so will maybe succeed at sone pf the skills your character did) and will have resolve.
While it is obvious that thr build is going to be a worse Soldier than a Soldier, or than a 1-Lvl dip Soldier, he is going to be better than the soldier at other things, like Diplo, or beibg a Solarian.
Let's wait until we have like 1 year of playtest before we talk in absolutes
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And that is acceptable for some.Is it?
Undeniably so.
In fact, the only way someone could claim otherwise, is if said person blindly refused to read what other posters wrote, or lacked basic reading comprehension. It is self evident that, for some doing a bit less damage is acceptable as a trade off for better CHA skills and faster solarian progression. The OP, for example. maybe not for you, but certainly for some.
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But if you you look up at the title of the thread, that's not really the point of this thread... And if anyone had been reading the forums the past couple of days you've made your opinion clear, possibly painfully so.Seems like you want to play a soldier. Id much rather have an actual solarianI could have both: soldier (blitz) 1/solarian 19, or soldier (blitz) 3/solarian 17.
When everyone on a board knows you to be only one thing. "We get it already. Now stop typing and go play."
With a tactical pikeWhy do you keep insisting on purchasing level 2 equipment at character generation? It's great if your GM lets you do this, but it is not going to be universally applied that all GMs allow level 2 equipment on level 1 characters at character generation.
It is the default setup. A GM could houserule it and decree they can't, but in general people will plan around what's presented in the rules as the default.
Rules say most settlements (at the GM's discretion) will allow level + 1 euipment. Says nothing about chargen though.
Rules say most settlements (at the GM's discretion) will allow level + 1 euipment. Says nothing about chargen though.
Honest question: does it says something otherwise? Like, does it say you can buy thibgs up to your level during Chargen?
Because if it doesn't,we can use 2 assumptions:
1) regular purchase rules are used
2) you can't buy things at all.
However, besides this theorycrafting stuff, it's kibd of a moot point, tho. You could simoly don't buy tge pike, save the credits, and buy it in the first few minutes of the first session. Your GM could rule otherwise, of course, to fit the story, but then, he could also rule you start with no gear, as some AP do (strange Aeons,serpent skull, skull and shavkles...)
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Rules say most settlements (at the GM's discretion) will allow level + 1 euipment.
They do not. Rules say the game assumes ilevel+1 is available (quote with page reference below)
Says nothing about chargen though.
Actually, Chargen directs you to Chapter 7 (Equipment), after noting you've got 1000 credits and waffling for a bit.
Literally, 'For more on the equipment availability and how much it costs, see Chapter 7'
In Chapter 7, p167. We have Item Level (where availability is discussed).
To quote the relevant bit:
"the game assumes that in typical settlements you can find and purchase anything with an item level no greater than your character level +1, and at major settlements items up to your character level +2. The GM can restrict access to some items (even for appropriate ilevel) or make higher level available for purchase."
So Chargen points you to Equipment, and that chapter flatly tells you level +1 or even +2. It is, in fact, the default assumption of the game, with the GM's option to restrict it beyond that.
"Assumes" and "no greater" heavily implies you need to ask your GM before you purchase anything above your level.
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"Assumes" and "no greater" heavily implies you need to ask your GM before you purchase anything above your level.
It does not. It states outright that this is the norm, and the GM will inform you of exceptions.
If it said 'you can assume,' you'd have more of an argument, but 'the game assumes' indicates a default case. The game also assumes you start at level 1- do you really believe that you need to ask your GM if you can make a level 1 character?
If they wanted it to be mother-may-I, they would have easily have stated that you need to ask the GM to buy above your item level, rather than stating that the GM can make exceptions to the default availability.
"Assumes" and "no greater" heavily implies you need to ask your GM before you purchase anything above your level.It does not. It states outright that this is the norm, and the GM will inform you of exceptions.
If it said 'you can assume,' you'd have more of an argument, but 'the game assumes' indicates a default case. The game also assumes you start at level 1- do you really believe that you need to ask your GM if you can make a level 1 character?
If they wanted it to be mother-may-I, they would have easily have stated that you need to ask the GM to buy above your item level, rather than stating that the GM can make exceptions to the default availability.
But they do state that. "The GM can restrict access to certain items (even those of an appropriate level)".
It puts the "appropriate level" comment in parentheses, rather than saying the GM just restricts that, and starts off with "assumes" in referring to items above your level.
"Assumes"
Your level is appropriate level, anything above that is Ask GM territory.
Heh, I still used to an old advice?rule? from 3.0 When building a new character never allow a player to spend more than 1/4th of his wealth on a single item.
I applied it to Starfinder and found that I could get a decently geared character, without only have a weapon, an armor and some clothing.
That rule/guideline is still in Starfinder :3
(p. 392)
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An appropriate item level is probably your level +1, or +2 if you're in a major settlement. That's what it says the game assumes you can buy.
At no point does it then go off and define "appropriate item level" as something different. Stop bringing this up in every thread.
I will keep bringing it up when it comes up.
Appropriate Item Level is your level, with certain lager settlements allowing you purchase at AIL +1 or +2. It doesn't really make sense to refer to the + as "AIL" since they're only accessible while in certain settlements. So what, does the CR of enemies decrease the further away from a settlement?
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Heh, I still used to an old advice?rule? from 3.0 When building a new character never allow a player to spend more than 1/4th of his wealth on a single item.
I applied it to Starfinder and found that I could get a decently geared character, without only have a weapon, an armor and some clothing.
That rule/guideline is still in Starfinder :3
(p. 392)
Thanks for pointing that page out, I hadn't started reading the GM section yet :).
Looks like the advice is no more than half their total wealth on a single item when being build above 1st level and to replace a dead partymember.
Advice is indeed no more than 25% wealth on weapon and no more than 25% on armor and protective devices for PCs build after 1st level.
No advice for first level, but this sounds fairly solid for first level to me as well.
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I will keep bringing it up when it comes up.
Appropriate Item Level is your level, with certain lager settlements allowing you purchase at AIL +1 or +2. It doesn't really make sense to refer to the + as "AIL" since they're only accessible while in certain settlements. So what, does the CR of enemies decrease the further away from a settlement?
Huh?
The game specifically says that typical settlements allow Level+1 gear. To quote directly:
the game assumes that in typical settlements you can find and purchase anything with an item level no greater than your character level+ 1
That...cannot reasonably be interpreted as Level+1 gear being rare or hard to acquire. It's explicitly available by default.
Appropriate Item Level is the level of gear you are expected to have, not the maximum level you can have. Most of your items will not be above that level, but having one or two a level or two above is, indeed, expected.
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I wasn't saying it was rare or hard to find, I'm saying you have to ask the GM if it's available to you. You can find IL 10, 15, and 20 equipment in a major settlement just fine. That doesn't mean it's available to you without the GM's say-so.
The book also doesn't define what a place needs to be considered a "typical" or "major" settlement, so again, ask your GM. "Is this place a typical settlement?" "Can I buy +1 stuff around here?"
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The default setting is "ask your GM." For SFS, the "GM" is the society rules. Society rules state Level + 1.
For everything else, it's campaign dependent, which means you need to ask your GM.
The book isn't the be-all-end-all of rules. Sometimes, you need a GM to make a ruling. And that's a good thing.
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The default setting is "ask your GM." For SFS, the "GM" is the society rules. Society rules state Level + 1.
For everything else, it's campaign dependent, which means you need to ask your GM.
The book isn't the be-all-end-all of rules. Sometimes, you need a GM to make a ruling. And that's a good thing.
Not for the basics, which this is. Needing to pester a GM to make a ruling to allow you to use the basic rules of the game is absurd.
This is akin to asking if the SF classes and races are available, part of the default set up. It specifically states that if the GM wants to restrict something, the GM will tell you. Not that you need to ask the GM to use the basic rules.
I wasn't saying it was rare or hard to find, I'm saying you have to ask the GM if it's available to you. You can find IL 10, 15, and 20 equipment in a major settlement just fine.
Not unless you're level 8, 13 or 18 respectively. If you aren't, then you cannot.
That doesn't mean it's available to you without the GM's say-so.
If you're the appropriate level, any equipment absolutely is, unless specifically restricted by the GM.
You have the setup exactly backwards. If there is something the GM doesn't want you to have, they'll tell you. Otherwise, the equipment list is completely open to everything of level +1 or +2.
The default setting is "ask your GM." For SFS, the "GM" is the society rules. Society rules state Level + 1.
For everything else, it's campaign dependent, which means you need to ask your GM.
The book isn't the be-all-end-all of rules. Sometimes, you need a GM to make a ruling. And that's a good thing.
Not for the basics, which this is. Needing a GM to make a ruling on the basic rules of the game is absurd.
This is akin to asking if the SF classes and races are available, part of the default set up. It specifically states that if the GM wants to restrict something, the GM will tell you. Not that you need to ask the GM to use the basic rules.
Why are you so negative all the time. Don't you have anything nice to say ever.
Why are you so negative all the time. Don't you have anything nice to say ever.The default setting is "ask your GM." For SFS, the "GM" is the society rules. Society rules state Level + 1.
For everything else, it's campaign dependent, which means you need to ask your GM.
The book isn't the be-all-end-all of rules. Sometimes, you need a GM to make a ruling. And that's a good thing.
Not for the basics, which this is. Needing a GM to make a ruling on the basic rules of the game is absurd.
This is akin to asking if the SF classes and races are available, part of the default set up. It specifically states that if the GM wants to restrict something, the GM will tell you. Not that you need to ask the GM to use the basic rules.
I don't even have the vaguest idea what you're talking about.
Finding an actual quote for the rules isn't 'negative'
You have the setup exactly backwards. If there is something the GM doesn't want you to have, they'll tell you. Otherwise, the equipment list is completely open to everything of level +1 or +2.
This just isn't true. Otherwise they would say you can buy up to +2 and leave it at that.
It states you can assume in a "Typical" settlement that you can buy at +1 and in "Major" settlements you can buy up to +2.
Typical and Major settlements aren't defined anywhere in the Book. The GM determines what those are and if you can purchase items at +1/+2.
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I wasn't saying it was rare or hard to find, I'm saying you have to ask the GM if it's available to you. You can find IL 10, 15, and 20 equipment in a major settlement just fine. That doesn't mean it's available to you without the GM's say-so.
The book also doesn't define what a place needs to be considered a "typical" or "major" settlement, so again, ask your GM. "Is this place a typical settlement?" "Can I buy +1 stuff around here?"
You have to ask your GM for everything, even things below your level. Your GM might be running a campaign about a pacifist ruler that have banned weapons in a certain planet, for example.
however the game assumes that, under normal circumstances, you can buy up to lvl +1, or lvl+2 in big places, such as Absalom. You could, of course, buy much higher than that if you happen to have the credits, but then you are trying to buy things beyond what the game assumes, which is no greater than lvl +1 (or, that is, equal to your Level +1, or lower, which is what «no greater than» means)
So yes, ypur GM could say you don't find a lvl 6 weapon at level 5, but that's because your GM could say you can't find a lvl 4 weapon at level 5 too. Your GM directs the story, and maybe the story is about a shortage of arms dealers, or strenghtening gun control, or whatever. But that is not what the game assumes. Game assumes your lvl +1
The game assumes you can buy no greater than +1 in a "typical" settlement.
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The game doesn't assume anything. The game recommends a wealth by level, and the suggests some different availability based on settlement size, but it doesn't assume the campaign you're in. That's the GMs job.
Which is why this is dependent on the GM, because the GM determines where you start. If you're starting on a desert planet harvesting water, it's unlikely you're also starting with Level+2 weapons and armor, unless the GM says so.
And that's exactly why the game doesn't assume what your allowed to start with: because it's campaign dependent.
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The game assumes you can buy no greater than +1 in a "typical" settlement.
Exactly. So, unless you are not in a «typical» settlement (ie: a settlement combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a settlement), the game assumes your lvl+1.
Your GM could of course change that, just like he could ban solarians, make Ysoki an evil race, or say that everybody has to play with a Kasatha because his campaign will be about kasathas, and that's ok. Just that then the campaign is not within what the game assumes.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you play any other game than starting at Absolom Station, you're playing outside the assumptions of the game. Got it.
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So Chargen points you to Equipment, and that chapter flatly tells you level +1 or even +2.
So will everyone be allowing Level 3 items at chargen then? Or if a player says "my homeworld is Absalom, can I buy things at level 3" will you be obliged to say yes because "that is what the game assumes" (remember: the rules have been built around the setting and so the setting is part of the "default assumption" for Starfinder).
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I was fooling around with the rules last night, and started making a Vesk Solarian, and then realized that a Lashunta (Korasha) would make an even better solarian than a Kasatha; they get a +2 to STR and CHA, and a +2 to two skills, besides!
I do feel like solarians might end up getting an Unchained treatment eventually, because by comparison to every other class, they feel a bit ungainly in structure with the interplay between melee orientation and Charisma as primary. I swear they'd almost feel more effective getting longarm proficiency and using the stellar revelations as battlefield control to put targets in more advantageous positions,
My plan for my Solarian is to balance melee and ranged, so that I can be more effective in more situations. I'm probably going to carry a Shock Truncheon and an Arc Pistol as my primary weapons.
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I'm not sure switch hitting on a Solarian is a great plan. I mean, you can do it as a Dex-character with Operative weapons, but your melee damage is gonna be fairly mediocre...
Going the Solar Armor route you get very good AC, though. Maybe the net benefits make up for the low damage. I definitely wouldn't try and do Str-based melee and ranged combat at the same time.
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People seem to have the same problem they had with Peacebringers and Warshades in City of Heroes. Because they can do several different things they are naturally not the best at doing any of them. The solarion is basically a back-up class, filling in where needed.
Solarian is the highest DPR class in the game. Period. Probably by 5th level or so. How are they 'not the best at anything'?
I don't know if I'm sold on solarian being top DPS, other analyses I've seen put the solar weapon at the same damage as an equivalent one handed advanced weapon, plus or minus a point or so.
Again, I think the biggest perceived issue is the situational nature of the revelations. Stuff like supernova, blazing orbit, and black hole all seem like great "if the bad guys do this, I'll wreck them" abilities, but there's no guarantee that'll happen. I wonder if you want to get a number of different revelations and just go for whatever fits at the moment.
I don't know if I'm sold on solarian being top DPS, other analyses I've seen put the solar weapon at the same damage as an equivalent one handed advanced weapon, plus or minus a point or so.
Again, I think the biggest perceived issue is the situational nature of the revelations. Stuff like supernova, blazing orbit, and black hole all seem like great "if the bad guys do this, I'll wreck them" abilities, but there's no guarantee that'll happen. I wonder if you want to get a number of different revelations and just go for whatever fits at the moment.
Plasma Sheath gives you half level to damage, which should outpace a Soldier's Melee Striker talent by about level 6, or maybe earlier, depending on the Soldier.
The drawback is that Plasma Sheath takes actions to activate while Melee Striker doesn't. Additionally, Plasma Sheath is more vulnerable to issues like resistance or immunity.
Plasma Sheath plus Specialisation is 1.5×level to damage, wasn't there a soldier bit that gave that to their damage as well?
Plasma Sheath plus Specialisation is 1.5×level to damage, wasn't there a soldier bit that gave that to their damage as well?
No, Soldiers get Melee Striker (1.5x STR to damage), which scales slower.
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People seem to have the same problem they had with Peacebringers and Warshades in City of Heroes. Because they can do several different things they are naturally not the best at doing any of them. The solarion is basically a back-up class, filling in where needed.Solarian is the highest DPR class in the game. Period. Probably by 5th level or so. How are they 'not the best at anything'?In a gear dependent game there is no "highest DPS class". We have talked about situations where gear is limited, but the reverse can also happen: the party has vast amounts of credits and the shops are full of level+2 gear. In which case the soldier wins easily.
Well, actually, a Solarian can use any melee weapon a Soldier can. So...in a campaign like this they may wind up wasting a Class Feature, but still doing more damage.
A Soldier's unique damage bonus at, say, 10th level is about +3. A Solarian's is +7. The Solarian is the highest melee DPR class in Starfinder. Period.
That's not always the way you want to play them, and not true of all builds...but it's certainly true enough to say they're the best at something.
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If you play any other game than starting at Absolom Station, you're playing outside the assumptions of the game. Got it.
Nope. Because if you start in «a settlement combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a settlement» you are starting in a «typical» settlement. Which means the game assumes you buy lvl+1
However, your GM might want to start the campaign in a prison, as a prisioner, like Way of the Wicked 3pp AP does. Or in a wreckage of a ship, like Serpent Skull does. Or in an Assylum, like Strange Aeons does. Or Shangaied into a pirate ship, like skulls and shackles do. He might even want to start at a different level and not lvl 1, or might give the PC overpowered weapons of Lvl+5 because they start as military commandos in a mission in deep enemy territory, he knows you are not going to be able to buy things in a while, and preffers ypur militart commandos to wear military grade weaponry.
Those are not typical settlements, because they aren't «a settlement combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a settlement», and ut is perfectly fine for the GM to do so. However, for forum debate puropses, assuming your lvl 1 char will have lvl6 gear given to him for free, or none at all and need to get it from the rests of a wreckage isn't helpful. Most campaigns do start in a settlement « combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a settlement». Which means most campaigns assume level +1 purschase, not 0 like Serpent Skull nor 6 like our deep commandos AP.
If you play any other game than starting at Absolom Station, you're playing outside the assumptions of the game. Got it.Nope. Because if you start in «a settlement combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a settlement» you are starting in a «typical» settlement. Which means the game assumes you buy lvl+1
And what would «a settlement combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a settlement» even be?
A "typical" settlement is not defined in the Core rulebook.