Operatives can't snipe?

[baggageboy]

The only grey area is the part "taking 10 is almost never an option for a check that requires some sort of crucial effect as a key part of the adventure’s story." The distraction portion in the operatives ability is directly related to the distraction portion in the restriction on taking 10 revoking that restriction.

What EC Gamer is proposing an obvious misuse of the rules as intended. For a home game it's fine as long as your players will accept is, but if I were playing an operative and my GM tried to impose such a ruling I would be VERY upset.

[Hijiggy]

baggageboy wrote:

The only grey area is the part "taking 10 is almost never an option for a check that requires some sort of crucial effect as a key part of the adventure’s story." The distraction portion in the operatives ability is directly related to the distraction portion in the restriction on taking 10 revoking that restriction.

"Unless you have an ability that states otherwise, you cannot take 10 during a combat encounter. Also, you can’t take 10 when the GM rules that a situation is too hectic or that you are distracted"

This is actually seeming somewhat explicit to me. The operative ability sounds like its only mentioning the second instance, not combat.

"even if stress or distractions would normally prevent you from doing so"

It only mentions distractions, nothing to do with combat. The skill section separates the two issues (Combat vs distracted) when referring to taking 10.

Is there any specific ruling that says you CAN take 10 in combat with an operative?

[baggageboy]

Hmmmm perhaps there is more grey area than I had realized.

I do believe that the designers have mentioned that taking 10 on trick attack is expected, but I don't believe it's canonized anywhere. Maybe someone can provide a link.

[HuntingFate]

Ravingdork wrote:

HuntingFate wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Assuming an equal CR foe, that's a trick attack DC of 27.
3 (class skill) + 3 (insight bonus) + 7 (ranks) + 6 (ability score bonus and specialization bonus; may be higher or lower; ignoring the mistake where Ghost's Dex-based trick attack gets +4, since that will eventually be corrected)

Where are people getting the +4 to ghost stealth trick attack being a mistake from? Every other specialization gets something new for their trick attack at level 1. Taking that bonus from ghost away means ghost would be the only class that doesn't get something additional for their trick attack.

Are people getting this from Mark Seifter? He himself said "While I am the preliminary designer of the operative, commentary from forum posts by staff members are not official rules sources (and particularly not from me, since I'm not on the Starfinder team beyond the Starfinder CRB)"
He intended in the development cycle to not have the +4 bonus for ghost, but the bonus was added in on release meaning it was an intentional change.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uinx?Mark-Seifters-word-and-removes-the-4-to-t he

Also there is now an official FAQ for starfinder on paizo that also does not address this matter.
http://paizo.com/starfinder/faq#v5748eaic9vwu

Does this make Ghost Operatives better with stealth trick attacks? Absolutely, but that's their specialization. The other Dex Specialization don't get the bonus because they're getting a new option to use their trick attack with. The other specializations that do get the bonus is to make the skill even with Dex skills for trick attack, but what if an operative happens to have a high ability score for that skill? Then they'll be pretty close to the ghost in terms of trick attacks. The Spy is the same as Ghost in that they don't have a new option to make trick attacks with so they just get better with what they have.

You don't want ghost to have that +4 bonus? Home brew it

It's pretty well known (or rather, believed) that only the non-Dexterity-based options are supposed to have the +4 bonus.

The ghost is the only one that is Dexterity-based AND has the +4 bonus. Ergo, many people picked up on the discrepancy, assumed it was a mistake, asked the developers for clarification, and had their suspicions more or less confirmed (if only unofficially at this time).

Yes the ghost is the only one that is dexterity based and has the +4 bonus. However the fact of the matter is the ghost also does not get anything additional to the trick attack. The ghost and the spy specializations both do not get anything new for the trick attack so they just get better with what they do have. Take away ghost's +4 bonus and now ghost is the only specialization that doesn't get anything at all for their trick attack.

Saying because it's a skill that's not part of their main ability is pointless. A hacker is going to have a good intelligence score and a focus on computers in addition to Dex. Explorer and detective is going have a good wisdom score and focus on survival/sense motive. And the spy that has a good charisma score is going to end up nearly on par with ghost for trick attack.

Also it should have been the publisher that they asked for this because it's the publisher that makes the final decision. Mark Seifter, the designer of the operative has stated that his opinion and the opinion of the other staff members are not official rule sources. They have an official FAQ now to cover these questions. Ghost's +4 is not an issue addressed.

Not only that but on the same forum people are probably getting this from, mark says it himself on the next page, that it is based on an old ability score system that non Dex skills get +4 bonus because it was more difficult to increase the lower abilities and with the new ability score system it would be easier to increase the lower abilities which would then lead to you, eventually after the first couple levels, auto-succeed on those skill checks anyway. The specializations with the +4 bonus have an advantage with trick attacks at early levels but by the higher levels the +4 bonus begins to lose a bit of its advantage when you're going to more than likely auto succeed on your skill check for trickattack anyway. 20 ranks + 3 class skill bonus+ 6 operative edge+ 1 or 2 from a 12 or 14 ability score if you don't want to increase it too much, yea by that point the +4 really makes no difference. You already have over a +30 bonus to that skill by the end and just rolling a 10 means you auto succeed.

[baggageboy]

Hey guys, we got some input on another thread from Owen on this topic, here's a link. Enjoy :)

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unp7?Can-Operatives-take-10-in-combat

[HWalsh]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

EC Gamer Guy wrote:

Can only Take 10 if the GM allows it. I just decided that rolling for Trick attack is "a crucial part of the adventure's story."

Huh? At level 7, you can Take 10 on Trick Attack. Period. You, as the GM, can House Rule that away if you want to power down Operatives (though I'm not clear why you'd want to do that). But it's a very explicit House Rule, not 'you can only do this if the GM allows it' in the normal sense of that term.

Incorrect.

You cannot take 10 in combat.

The level 7 ability does not change this.

Specialization Skill Mastery states:

"You become so confident in certain skills that you can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When attempting a skill check with a skill in which you have the Skill Focus feat, you can take 10 even if stress or distractions would normally prevent you from doing so."

Taking 10's rules:

"Unless you have an ability that states otherwise, you cannot take 10 during a combat encounter. Also, you can’t take 10 when the GM rules that a situation is too hectic or that you are distracted, and taking 10 is almost never an option for a check that requires some sort of crucial effect as a key part of the adventure's story."

-----

Specialization Skill Mastery covers ONLY the options of "stress or distractions" which is the SECOND sentence of take 10.

"Also, you can’t take 10 when the GM rules that a situation is too hectic or that you are distracted, and taking 10 is almost never an option for a check that requires some sort of crucial effect as a key part of the adventure's story."

This sentence makes it very clear Deadmanwalking that this is a SECONDARY CLAUSE to not being able to take 10.

However Specialization Skill Mastery does NOT apply to combat in its description, so the first sentence under taking 10:

"Unless you have an ability that states otherwise, you cannot take 10 during a combat encounter."

Specialization Skill Mastery does NOT mention combat, at all. So no. No auto-success for you if we are playing by RAW.

Edit:

Unfortunately Owen has already made an alteration to this, so that you can take it in combat so this does work. Just not RAW (as it has not yet been edited).

Also to make the link to Owen's statement an actual link...

Link

[Rub-Eta]

Solved! Thanks Paizo team!