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Sniper weapons do more damage than Small Arms per item level. This roughly cancels out the damage you receive from Sneak Attack.
In this case, this is an additional option for operatives wanting to use Sniper weapons more often. They are one of only two classes that receive Weapon Specialization by default in Sniper weapons, where Operatives act as more supportive snipers compared to Soldiers who act more offensively as snipers.
The limited range seems to be to prevent Operatives from just sitting back and applying debuffs on everybody. In this way, they need to be a bit closer to the fight.
One option is that this is a case of the specific operative rule overriding the general sniper rule. Unlike a standard sniper you give up your swift action, in return you get to move and add your bonus damage. Not saying that's intended, but it's defensible.
Edit: Punctuation change.
One option is that this is a case of the specific operative rule overriding the general sniper rule unlike a standard sniper you give up your swift action, in return you get to move and add your bonus damage. Not saying that's intended, but it's defensible.No, that's not a defensible option. Nowhere is this stated to be possible.
Also, as far as I know, you can't use swift actions and full actions in the same round.
Right, a standard sniper would still (only) have their swift action available, the operative would be giving that up in return for their class ability functioning with snipers and overruling the standard sniper action economy and limits.
Edit: Missed the specific "no extra damage" clause. The below looks like a good solution.
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Until a FAQ says otherwise, im ruling that the move action allowed by trick attack can be used for the move action to enable the increased range when using the debilitating sniper talent. It still doesn't use the trick attack damage, but it can apply debilitating trick penalties at extreme range.
Debilitating Shot improves sniper rifles at close range. At long range, sniper rifles are already the best-and-only option. We will probably get more sniper stuff later.
Sniper weapons do more damage than Small Arms per item level. This roughly cancels out the damage you receive from Sneak Attack.Did some calculation and I have to call b+%*&~+~ on this.
Assuming a 7th level Operative:
Trick Attack +4d8;
Shirren-eye rifle, advanced (level 8, 2d10 damage);
Knife, tactical (level 7, 2d4 damage);
The single trick attack deals an avg of 5 (weapon base) + 3 (weapon specialization)+ 18 damage (trick attack) = 26 damage.
The single sniper deals an avg of 11 (weapon base) +7 (weapon specialization) = 18 damage.At level 8 (still using the same weapons), triple attack has a potential of 36 damage (5x3 base + 4x3 weapon specialization) while trick attack and sniper only increases by 1 each.
At level 9 (still using the same weapons), trick attack (31,5 damage) still doesn't catches up to triple attack (still at potential 36 damage), around 50-80% more damage than the sniper (20 damage).Snipers do not break even in damage. At all.
Also, keep in mind: There are small arms that have a range increment of 60ft, cost less than the given sniper and deals more base damage than the given knife.
So I'm wondering: What is the point of Debilitating Sniper if it decreases your damage output but still doesn't allow you to deliver debilitating tricks at a greater range?
I think a decent interim homebrew solution is giving snipers half your Trick Attack damage (which should roughly put them on the Small Arms Trick Attack damage curve) and/or allowing them to use the Snipe action in place of movement as part of the Trick Attack.
This actually gives reasons to use the Debilitating Sniper talent.
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I think you're missing a couple of other points.
Multiattacks (double, triple or quad attacks) will reduce your accuracy. So, while your potential total damage is higher, the actual amount done will vary a lot more over a single shot.
In addition, while you don't get trick attack damage, you DO get to apply a debuff, even if it isn't at super-long range. This might be important to helping allies affect a well-defended enemy.
Sniper weapons also already have a decent range by default, even without using the sniper property - much longer than equivalent small arms. Almost double at low level, and only slightly shorter than most equivalent longarms (which operatives can't use without a feat anyway).
Also, the base damage of most sniper weapons is on par with equivalent longarms, and generally slightly higher than same level smallarms - at level 1, the small arm is 1d6, the long arm is 1d8, and the sniper is 1d10. At level 8, it's 2d6 vs 2d8 vs 2d10. So, it's not actually terrible.
I think you're missing a couple of other points.
Multiattacks (double, triple or quad attacks) will reduce your accuracy. So, while your potential total damage is higher, the actual amount done will vary a lot more over a single shot.
In addition, while you don't get trick attack damage, you DO get to apply a debuff, even if it isn't at super-long range. This might be important to helping allies affect a well-defended enemy.
Sniper weapons also already have a decent range by default, even without using the sniper property - much longer than equivalent small arms. Almost double at low level, and only slightly shorter than most equivalent longarms (which operatives can't use without a feat anyway).
Also, the base damage of most sniper weapons is on par with equivalent longarms, and generally slightly higher than same level smallarms - at level 1, the small arm is 1d6, the long arm is 1d8, and the sniper is 1d10. At level 8, it's 2d6 vs 2d8 vs 2d10. So, it's not actually terrible.
This is wrong all around. First, Trick Attacking with a Small Arm generally results in more damage than Trick Attacking with a Sniper Rifle, as was demonstrated in the math above.
Second, an Operative with Small Arms doesn't rely on weapon damage dice as strongly as anyone else, and thus will most likely prefer to use Laser Pistols, which mean better accuracy (for more consistent damage output) with a range increment equal to Sniper Rifles, invalidating them. And if you specifically want projectile weapons for whatever reason, at higher levels projectile Small Arm range increment matches Sniper Rifles, invalidating them ever further.
Third, your comparisons seem dishonest - as far as I can see, you're comparing a level 2 Sniper Rifle to a level 1 Longarm and a level 8 Sniper Rifle to a level 7 Longarm. The lowest level (2) Sniper Rifle is 1d10, making it on par with alternatives (a level 2 Crossbolter also deals 1d10). The same is observed at level 8 (also versus a Crossbolter, 2d10 vs 2d10).
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If I may. Another poster has done some very good calculations.
Lets assume that you can use Trick Attack movement to "aim" the sniper rifle. Which btw is a very good rule imo.
The links below compare Smalls arms vs Sniper with and without TA
The second link is Smalls arms full attack vs Smalls TA
I feel like Operatives should be able to use their weapons with their inherent class features automatically. Including damage. But I understand Paizo, they have made some calculations and have reasons for the path they choose. But Sniper rifles are not so useful. Right now Full attacks is way more efficient and TA (with small arms as well) as well. Even if you allow TA with Sniper Rifles full attacks are better at lv 12 or so I think. Unless the target has very high AC, maybe. Only between 5-12 or so is sniper Rifles with TA better.
Also TA with small arms is way more efficient than Sniper rifles from lvl 1-20. Full attack at lv 5 is pretty much equal with Sniper rifle without TA and after that way way better. All this is true unless we engage at extreme ranges.
The links don't work but the poster is called Sundered Hero in this thread. Search for his name and post.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uic2?What-if-sniper-rifles-had-Trick-Attack
If I may. Another poster has done some very good calculations.
Lets assume that you can use Trick Attack movement to "aim" the sniper rifle. Which btw is a very good rule imo.
The links below compare Smalls arms vs Sniper with and without TA
The second link is Smalls arms full attack vs Smalls TAI feel like Operatives should be able to use their weapons with their inherent class features automatically. Including damage. But I understand Paizo, they have made some calculations and have reasons for the path they choose.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_bB4nyrv0jgeGCxm5AtqS3GYwX59QOeNVm4 SeR21yXA/edit#gid=365982636
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qp_bxrnupacXcHlnhK0Co-9kBs5m-LlqFUU pNqu-Zxs/edit#gid=618001661
Also TA with small arms is way more efficient than Sniper rifles from lvl 1-20. Full attack at lv 5 is pretty much equal with Sniper rifle without TA and after that way way better. All this is true unless we engage at extreme ranges.
The links don't work for me.
The damage calculations are off, because they don't account for the fact that trick attack isn't guaranteed to succeed, adjust for reduced accuracy on multiple attacks, or account for the debuff. Sniper weapons get full damage even if trick attack doesn't succeed, while small arms do much less.
Assuming an equal CR foe, that's a trick attack DC of 27.
3 (class skill) + 3 (insight bonus) + 7 (ranks) + 6 (ability score bonus and specialization bonus; may be higher or lower; ignoring the mistake where Ghost's Dex-based trick attack gets +4, since that will eventually be corrected) = 19
You need a roll of 8+, so we lose about a third of the trick attack damage. That brings the regular trick attack from 26 damage down to about 20.
The point is to allow snipers to not buy extra weapons.
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The damage calculations are off, because they don't account for the fact that trick attack isn't guaranteed to succeed, adjust for reduced accuracy on multiple attacks, or account for the debuff. Sniper weapons get full damage even if trick attack doesn't succeed, while small arms do much less.
Assuming an equal CR foe, that's a trick attack DC of 27.
3 (class skill) + 3 (insight bonus) + 7 (ranks) + 6 (ability score bonus and specialization bonus; may be higher or lower; ignoring the mistake where Ghost's Dex-based trick attack gets +4, since that will eventually be corrected) = 19
You need a roll of 8+, so we lose about a third of the trick attack damage. That brings the regular trick attack from 26 damage down to about 20.The point is to allow snipers to not buy extra weapons.
You can take 10 on Trick Attack, and thus autosucceed.
You can take 10 on Trick Attack, and thus autosucceed.The damage calculations are off, because they don't account for the fact that trick attack isn't guaranteed to succeed, adjust for reduced accuracy on multiple attacks, or account for the debuff. Sniper weapons get full damage even if trick attack doesn't succeed, while small arms do much less.
Assuming an equal CR foe, that's a trick attack DC of 27.
3 (class skill) + 3 (insight bonus) + 7 (ranks) + 6 (ability score bonus and specialization bonus; may be higher or lower; ignoring the mistake where Ghost's Dex-based trick attack gets +4, since that will eventually be corrected) = 19
You need a roll of 8+, so we lose about a third of the trick attack damage. That brings the regular trick attack from 26 damage down to about 20.The point is to allow snipers to not buy extra weapons.
Oh, right! They get that right at the level we're discussing. Well, I retract my analysis, and pat sniper rifles consolingly.
Given that I've never been in an encounter that required or even allowed for attacking at 250' (level 1 sniper rifle) I don't see any use for sniper rifles.
And what's with the range increments as sniper weapons level?
Range difference between a level 1 and level 20 sniper rifle is 10' unless you aim then its a difference of 750'?
A level 1 laser pistol has the same range as a lvl 20 sniper rifle...unless you want to aim and shoot something at 1000' feet away.
If I may. Another poster has done some very good calculations.
(snip)
The links don't work but the poster is called Sundered Hero in this thread. Search for his name and post.
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You're using the wrong sniper rifle.
You need the Tactical Sniper Rifle from the First Contact book. Damage is 1d810+DEX.
It's the only Sniper Rifle to get!
:P
Personally, the way that I see it is that Operatives should have the ability to do full dmg with a trick attack through a sniper rifle for one reason; It fulfills the role of the sniper.
I looked through all of this, and while it makes sense why Paizo was trying to keep Snipers from becoming too strong I simply see no reason to ever pull one out. Yes the Snipers don't have bad damage, but the later the level you reach the weaker they get, to the point where, if you slap them in at lv 13, the numbers as is are this:
Small arms: Utilizing the Paragon semi-auto pistol you deal 14+6+31=51 [4d6 gun + WS + TA].
Sniper: Utilizing the Elite Shirren-eye rifle you deal 22+13=35 [4d10 + WS]At this point, at lv 13 where being able to do massive damage from long distance becomes much less of a one shot kill, the sniper ends up having 750ft range...and getting just more than three quarters the damage. At this point literally the only reason you would ever use a sniper is for long range, otherwise it becomes inferior to the other weapons in practically every way [requires two hands, does less damage, and can only be shot once from said range]
I would never use a Sniper weapon as the rules show them, I would rather slap out anything else and take a few penalties and shoot my pistol from further than one range increment while moving up. As it is now, the trick is just that, a trick to lure people with dreams of being Saito into taking it.
Yes, the reason to take a sniper rifle is for the range. Seems fine to me. Otherwise you end up with the operative dealing their usual damage from off the map, while everyone else needs to worry about getting hit back.
You have a pretty good chance of getting several sniper shots off at long range with the right debilitating trick talents.
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The really, really hard part is Perception to see a target with a -24 penalty (250' distant) at low levels. Good luck seeing the target at a -99 penalty (1,000' distant), let alone at maximum range of 10 range increments.
Strangely, the only thing I find mentioning a specific range penalty on Perception checks is buried under 'stealth and detection in a forest'.
True Starfinder snipers should fit one of these on their sniper rifle at the low, low cost of 5 credits and one unit of Light bulk. ;)
80x magnification reduces 10,000' to a mere 125', only a -12 Perception penalty to set up that sweet, sweet shot at close to 2 miles' range.
I may be missing something here but where in Trick Attack does it say you can make multiple attacks with it in a round. Even when you get triple attack or quad attack they do not say you can also use Trick attack.
Also the point of a Sniper Rifle is to be way off in the distance, while this may not come up very often in game a smart group can set it up to be quite useful.
I may be missing something here but where in Trick Attack does it say you can make multiple attacks with it in a round. Even when you get triple attack or quad attack they do not say you can also use Trick attack.
Also the point of a Sniper Rifle is to be way off in the distance, while this may not come up very often in game a smart group can set it up to be quite useful.
You can't. It's one or the other. Triple/Quad Attack is better against multiple targets, Trick is better against solo targets.
I don't mean to sound factious, but isn't most of this academic? Operatives actually can't trick-snipe, if we follow the rules as written.
I know specific rules trump general ones, but Debilitating Sniper only allows you to use weapons of the Sniper class. It doesn't lift the restriction on Trick Attack with Unweildy properties. So you have to find a Sniper weapon without Unweildy.
Of which there currently are none.
The only use I can currently see for Sniper weapons (besides assassinating commoners for whatever reason) is for Technomancers, mostly with the Spellshot Magic Hack.
You can cast an area spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or less through a ranged weapon, allowing you to use the weapon’s range rather than the spell’s range. You must target a single creature with your attack, and the spell’s area is centered on that creature, or originates at the creature’s location for a cone or line effect (oriented in whichever direction you choose), even if the spell would normally be centered on or originate from a point. You can fire the weapon as part of the standard action to cast the spell. You must fire the weapon during the round that the casting is completed, or the spell is wasted. If the attack misses, the spell is wasted. Spells with an emanation effect that would be centered on you don’t benefit from this magic hack.
The ability doesn't interfere with the move action to aim, a Technomancer could use a feat to get Sniper proficiency rather than Longarms proficiency, and if you really wanted to, you could take Overheat as your choice for Eternal Spell and use this all day. The Harmful Spells Magic Hack can boost the damage some more.
There are a couple other ways a Technomancer can use a Sniper weapon, like the Supercharge Weapon spell and the Seeking Shot and Phase Shot Magic Hacks, though they're probably not quite as useful.
allowing them to use the Snipe action in place of movement as part of the Trick Attack.I think this should be well enough. And I honestly think that this is somewhat what is intended.
I'll third this. Only makes sense
Assuming an equal CR foe, that's a trick attack DC of 27.
3 (class skill) + 3 (insight bonus) + 7 (ranks) + 6 (ability score bonus and specialization bonus; may be higher or lower; ignoring the mistake where Ghost's Dex-based trick attack gets +4, since that will eventually be corrected)
Where are people getting the +4 to ghost stealth trick attack being a mistake from? Every other specialization gets something new for their trick attack at level 1. Taking that bonus from ghost away means ghost would be the only class that doesn't get something additional for their trick attack.
Are people getting this from Mark Seifter? He himself said "While I am the preliminary designer of the operative, commentary from forum posts by staff members are not official rules sources (and particularly not from me, since I'm not on the Starfinder team beyond the Starfinder CRB)"
He intended in the development cycle to not have the +4 bonus for ghost, but the bonus was added in on release meaning it was an intentional change.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uinx?Mark-Seifters-word-and-removes-the-4-to-t heAlso there is now an official FAQ for starfinder on paizo that also does not address this matter.
http://paizo.com/starfinder/faq#v5748eaic9vwuDoes this make Ghost Operatives better with stealth trick attacks? Absolutely, but that's their specialization. The other Dex Specialization don't get the bonus because they're getting a new option to use their trick attack with. The other specializations that do get the bonus is to make the skill even with Dex skills for trick attack, but what if an operative happens to have a high ability score for that skill? Then they'll be pretty close to the ghost in terms of trick attacks. The Spy is the same as Ghost in that they don't have a new option to make trick attacks with so they just get better with what they have.
You don't want ghost to have that +4 bonus? Home brew it
It's pretty well known (or rather, believed) that only the non-Dexterity-based options are supposed to have the +4 bonus.
The ghost is the only one that is Dexterity-based AND has the +4 bonus. Ergo, many people picked up on the discrepancy, assumed it was a mistake, asked the developers for clarification, and had their suspicions more or less confirmed (if only unofficially at this time).
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Trick attack specifically calls out unwieldy (I spelt it write that thyme!) weapons as being inappropriate for Trick Attack.
"You can’t use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack." (p. 93)
Debilitating Sniper allows sniper weapons to be used with Trick Attack, but does not waive the unwieldy prohibition. As such, none of the current sniper rifles can be used to Trick Attack. This is Rules as Written, as it may be unwieldy is a property all sniper weapons are meant to have, and it may be implied to have been waived by Debilitating Sniper, but there you are.
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As I said in my original post, I'm aware of the specific versus general override. But the intent of a specific rule doesn't trump the general wording just because it would make the specific rule more useable.
Debilitating Sniper specifically creates an exemption in the Trick Attack rules that adds sniper weapons to the list of allowable weapons, but it does not exempt sniper weapons from all the other restrictions Trick Attack has. Unwieldy is a separate restriction in Trick Attack.
Again, I'm talking Rules as Written. I think most people would assume that, since all current sniper weapons are unwieldy (and judging by the implied rationale for the unwieldy and sniper rules, likely all further canon sniper weapons will be as well) that the *intent* was to allow sniper weapons even if they were unwieldy. However, the text does not bear that out.
The real question remains as to whether you can actually snipe using an exploit called 'Debilitating Sniper', due to the fact that sniping requires a free move action and Trick Attack has dibs on your turn's move. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that any arguments based on Rules as Written have a much earlier stumbling block.
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Can only Take 10 if the GM allows it. I just decided that rolling for Trick attack is "a crucial part of the adventure's story."
You can take 10 on Trick Attack, and thus autosucceed.The damage calculations are off, because they don't account for the fact that trick attack isn't guaranteed to succeed, adjust for reduced accuracy on multiple attacks, or account for the debuff. Sniper weapons get full damage even if trick attack doesn't succeed, while small arms do much less.
Assuming an equal CR foe, that's a trick attack DC of 27.
3 (class skill) + 3 (insight bonus) + 7 (ranks) + 6 (ability score bonus and specialization bonus; may be higher or lower; ignoring the mistake where Ghost's Dex-based trick attack gets +4, since that will eventually be corrected) = 19
You need a roll of 8+, so we lose about a third of the trick attack damage. That brings the regular trick attack from 26 damage down to about 20.The point is to allow snipers to not buy extra weapons.
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Can only Take 10 if the GM allows it. I just decided that rolling for Trick attack is "a crucial part of the adventure's story."
Huh? At level 7, you can Take 10 on Trick Attack. Period. You, as the GM, can House Rule that away if you want to power down Operatives (though I'm not clear why you'd want to do that). But it's a very explicit House Rule, not 'you can only do this if the GM allows it' in the normal sense of that term.
Can only Take 10 if the GM allows it. I just decided that rolling for Trick attack is "a crucial part of the adventure's story."Huh? At level 7, you can Take 10 on Trick Attack. Period. You, as the GM, can House Rule that away if you want to power down Operatives (though I'm not clear why you'd want to do that). But it's a very explicit House Rule, not 'you can only do this if the GM allows it' in the normal sense of that term.
"Unless you have an ability that states otherwise, you cannot take 10 during a combat encounter. Also, you can’t take 10 when the GM rules that a situation is too hectic or that you are distracted, and taking 10 is almost never an option for a check that requires some sort of crucial effect as a key part of the adventure’s story."
"You become so confident in certain skills that you can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When attempting a skill check with a skill in which you have the Skill Focus feat, you can take 10 even if stress or distractions would normally prevent you from doing so."
There's some gray area between the two. Honestly the operative ability doesn't explicitly say combat; it doesn't "State otherwise".