My First Starfinder Sessions

[Colette Brunel]

I had just emerged from my first Starfinder session. We were an ysoki operative (ghost), a vesk melee soldier, an android technomancer, and a human mystic, all at 1st level. (No envoys or solarians here.)

The session was a mini-adventure consisting of three combat encounters. The first fight was inexplicably difficult; our opponents were four 1st-level PCs. The GM had used a mix of First Contact monsters, math-converted Pathfinder monsters, and PCs-as-NPCs. The GM did not have much of a choice given the lack of official monsters.

Before each encounter was a series of skill-related challenges, which spanned a wide variety of the game's skills. Memorable moments included hacking into a cyborg bear's computer, using a Token Spell to paint the party white in order to bypass color-scanning sensors, and cooking a meal so fine as to be poisonous to space goblins (and then rigging two detonator-activated grenades to it).

I was playing the operative*. The class exceeded all expectations. The operative is a juggernaut of a skill monkey that can do just about anything out of combat. The operative is no slouch in a fight thank to trick attacks. Our operative had the greatest kill and damage count in the party, even discounting their critical hits. The class sits comfortably in mid-to-high tier 3.

Unsurprisingly, given the abundance of ranged weapons, combats that start at long distances significantly screw over melee-focused characters. Low-level spellcasters suffer too, as their spells tend to be close-ranged. My azimuth-laser-pistol-toting operative was exploiting a range increment of 80 feet against NPC operatives foolishly wielding tactical semiautomatic pistols with a mere 30 feet for a range increment. Predictable.

The mechanics were not particularly inspired, but they vaguely accomplished what they set out to do: run generic Pathfinder adventures, except in space. It was serviceable, and it helped that 1st level in Starfinder is not quite a rusty dagger shanktown.

*There is a disclaimer here: even after I had shown the GM the statements from Mark Seifter concerning the errors in the operative as printed, the GM opted to run the operative RAW, since what is printed in the book is what is printed in the book.
I am confident that the operative (ghost) would be significantly less potent if the GM takes Mark Seifter's word and removes the +4 to the ghost's trick attacks; that would mean denying the "one true operative build" that is a halfling or an ysoki operative (ghost) with a pistol, and encouraging more variety in operative builds.

[Seisho]

I hate this post because I am friggin envious that I can't play yet

[Varun Creed]

Colette Brunel wrote:

*There is a disclaimer here: even after I had shown the GM the statements from Mark Seifter concerning the errors in the operative as printed, the GM opted to run the operative RAW, since what is printed in the book is what is printed in the book.

I am confident that the operative (ghost) would be significantly less potent if the GM takes Mark Seifter's word and removes the +4 to the ghost's trick attacks; that would mean denying the "one true operative build" that is a halfling or an ysoki operative (ghost) with a pistol, and encouraging more variety in operative builds.

Ah you mean the +4 from some of the Specialization associated skills?

[Colette Brunel]

I would also like to add that our vesk soldier was extremely mediocre during the session. In combat, they were shabby simply due to low d20 rolls; I imagine that their Blitz tactical pike build would have proven quite impressive otherwise.

Outside of combat, the vesk's -2 Intelligence, a middling skill list, and 4 base skill points per level lend nowhere near satisfactory a noncombat toolset. All classes should have solid combat options and noncombat options, if you ask me.

As for the PCs-as-NPCs, the GM, in fairness, had written the subsequent encounters with actual monster guidelines in mind. I am not sure why they had opted for PC-built enemies in the first encounter. It was a tough fight made easy only by timely critical hits from our side.

Varun Creed wrote:

Ah you mean the +4 from some of the Specialization associated skills?

Yes, that.

[Ludovicus]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Outside of combat, the vesk's -2 Intelligence, a middling skill list, and 4 base skill points per level lend nowhere near satisfactory a noncombat toolset. All classes should have solid combat options and noncombat options, if you ask me.

I imagine a human soldier, perhaps going themeless to get a class skill of their choice, would look a lot better here. (One of the things I like about Starfinder ability score advancement in this context is that ranged soldiers can easily afford to have quite decent Intelligence scores if they want to, particularly if they're willing to wait until 5th level to get the Strength for heavy weapons.)

[Colette Brunel]

I have played through a second session of Starfinder at 1st level, this time as a human solarian. tl;dr = It was awful, and we died.

In my first session (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uimg?Trip-Report-My-first-Starfinder-session) , our party was composed of an ysoki operative (ghost), a pike-wielding vesk soldier (blitz), a human mystic (xenodruid), and an android technomancer. Although our soldier had major trouble with attack rolls due to poor luck, we blazed through the adventure with flying colors. We trounced three skill-based noncombat sequences and three battles with ease. We experienced not a single hitch, there were no tense moments, and our combat victories were foregone conclusions. Most notably, my operative was unquestionably the MVP of the entire party; they were a juggernaut of a skill monkey who handled the great majority of the party's skill checks, and they put up a ferocious fight thanks to trick attacks as well. Granted, the GM was running the operative (ghost) RAW.

In this new, second session, the GM and I played through the same adventure again, with two different players; I tried to minimize my metaknowledge. Our party was smaller: a human solarian, a human soldier (sharpshoot) with an azimuth artillery laser, and a human mystic (healer). The GM opted to ease up on the skill-based noncombat-sequences and to downgrade the encounters to half their original strength (e.g. an encounter with four equal-powered enemies went down to only two opponents) to compensate for a weaker party. In other words, we were playing through a significantly easier version of the adventure, with a small yet unavoidable amount of metaknowledge atop that.

I had built my solarian as best as I could: Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Weapon Focus (advanced melee weapons), a tactical pike, and hidden soldier armor. Unfortunately, this left me with exactly 1 Resolve Point, and made Black Hole and Supernova nigh-unusable. This means that for all intents and purposes, my character was a classless character with a +1 bonus to damage rolls and a pathetic 1 Resolve Point. I have no idea why Charisma is the solarian's key ability score; it should really be Strength. Raising Charisma would have meant sacrificing Strength or Dexterity, and I was unwilling to do either as the party's only front-liner.

What anyone serious about playing a solarian should do is take a level of soldier (blitz) as their very first character level. This grants Strength or Dexterity as a key ability score, proficiency with heavy armor, +4 initiative, and +10 speed, thereby solving a host of the solarian's issues. From there, take solarian levels.

In any case, the session. Our party struggled through the two skill-based noncombat sequences, even taking into account that the GM had made them easier. Whereas my Intelligence 16 operative carried the entire group outside of combat, my Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma 10 solarian had a hard time with such things. Much of the time, they just did not have the skills with which to meaningfully contribute, and their skill bonuses were not especially high. Such is the hard lot of a Strength-primary character: twiddling thumbs when not in battle. We definitely suffered for having no operative around, and no Intelligence-based character altogether.

The first fight was rough. We were only three PCs, but the GM had halved the number of enemies in the battle, so in theory, it should have been an even easier fight than before. Perhaps due to poor rolls on our side, we blundered through much of it. My character stayed in photon mode throughout the whole battle, and never used Black Hole or Supernova. Even if my character was a Charisma 16 lashunta solarian instead, it would not have mattered, as there were no good opportunities to actually use either revelation; the enemies were too spread-out, as a single melee unit and a single ranged unit.

The second battle was a catastrophe. It was against a single melee unit that the GM had downgraded to accommodate the weaker party. Naturally, Black Hole and Supernova had no place here, so I would not have used them even if my character's Charisma was any better. My character was thus nothing more than a classless character with a +1 bonus to damage rolls and a measly 1 Resolve Point. We did our best, but the rolls turned against us.

Here is where the 1 Resolve truly screwed us over: both the solarian and the mystic went down, and it just so happened that the mystic was also down to 1 Resolve Point, because they spent it all earlier restoring Hit Points mid-battle via Healing Channel. Our soldier was busy trying to take down the dangerous enemy, and by the time said opponent was dead, the solarian and the mystic were likewise dead.

I imagine that we would have fared much more aptly with more fortunate dice luck, but that does not change the fact that the operative was performing at mediocre capacities outside of combat, that there were no good moments to actually use Black Hole and Supernova (never mind that my character had to have Charisma 10), and that low Resolve Points truly screw a party over.

If you are still set on playing a solarian after this, take a level in soldier (blitz) first. Trust me. The solarian was a disappointment.

Past 1st level, the solarian is actually a competent damage-dealer under the "one true build" that is Stellar Rush at 2nd, Plasma Sheath at 4th, and Corona at 6th. A solarian with such a build is really quite competent at closing into melee and dealing large amounts of damage. It means totally ignoring graviton mode, graviton revelations, Black Hole, and Supernova, but such is life as a solarian.

In a world wherein grenades and AoE attacks are commonplace, it is not as if you are going to see enemies willingly clustering together anyway. Black Hole and Supernova can warm the bench, even for a solarian who puts points into Charisma.

It is just that having to spend a feat for Heavy Armor Proficiency is a pain, and so is having Charisma as a key ability modifier. That is why the first level of soldier (blitz) is so important: it gives heavy armor proficiency, Strength or Dexterity as a key ability modifier, and +4 initiative and +10 speed atop all that.

[Matsu Kurisu]

Thanks for the writeup. Good to get real feedback not just theory crafting.
Would things have been different if your soldier was playing a melee / tank and you had free reign for choosing your role for the solarian and could increase cha etc

[Colette Brunel]

Matsu Kurisu wrote:

Thanks for the writeup. Good to get real feedback not just theory crafting.

Would things have been different if your soldier was playing a melee / tank and you had free reign for choosing your role for the solarian and could increase cha etc

If the party's soldier was a "tactical pike and hidden soldier armor" 1st-level character as well, then there is a good chance my character would not have died, yes.

My solarian would have been just as mediocre as a ranged character. Solarians have proficiency with advanced melee weapons but not longarms, so that would mean spending a feat on Longarm Proficiency. At least I could have benefited from solar armor then.

I did feel justified in taking Dexterity 14 though, as the extra 2 AC and initiative mattered. If I had opted for Charisma 14 instead, my character would have still been stomped, just in a different way: being hit more often and having only 3 Resolve Points.

Combat in Starfinder generally is not gritty at all, even at 1st level. In our first group, wherein I was playing an operative rather than a solarian, we breezed through combat. We found it not a single bit gritty due to an abundance of Stamina Points, Hit Points, and Resolve Points despite our party's Constitution scores being 10, 10, 10, and 12.

It is just that in the new group with the solarian, that solarian's Resolve 1 truly bit us in the back (but no more so than setting Dexterity to 10), and unfortunate rolls exacerbated this.

A melee solarian is stuck between a rock and a hard place due to having Charisma as a key ability score. This can be solved by a one-level dip in soldier (blitz), of course.

[Colette Brunel]

This incident, by the way, was home to my first proper character death ever, and also my first TPK (well, two out of three player characters died) on the player side.

I knew what I was signing up for as a 1st-level solarian, however.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Colette Brunel wrote:

I knew what I was signing up for as a 1st-level solarian, however.

That you intentionally built in a subpar manner in order to justify your "one true build" assumption. I don't really know how viable this data can be when you intentionally dump their core stat and then claim their class abilities are useless since you dumped the stat they go off of and also had no Resolve.

[Wrath]

I'm assuming the black,hole stuff is an area effect type deal? If so, it's possible,to,drop those so they target bad guy and miss your companions. It does require some co ordinated movement for the players to ensure they're engaging the baddy and still allow you a clean area to drop your area effect so it just catches Mr Bad in the zone.

Unsure how experienced you are in this type of game sorry. It just sounds like the way you were discussing it, you weren't using area effect on single opponents.

[Colette Brunel]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

That you intentionally built in a subpar manner in order to justify your "one true build" assumption. I don't really know how viable this data can be when you intentionally dump their core stat and then claim their class abilities are useless since you dumped the stat they go off of and also had no Resolve.

I have already covered this above.

1. There were no good opportunities to use Black Hole or Supernova in either battle. There were no enemies clustering up, and I do not expect non-animalistic enemies to do so in a setting wherein grenades, AoE weapons, and other AoE effects are commonplace. Even if I did have good Charisma, it is not as though I would have been able to put Black Hole or Supernova to good use.

2. I did feel justified in taking Dexterity 14. The extra 2 AC and initiative mattered. If I had opted for Charisma 14 instead, my character would have still been put into the ground by virtue of being hit more often. AC actually matters, particularly if one is the party's only frontliner. In other words, my character would have died regardless if they had Dexterity 14 and Charisma 10, Dexterity 12 and Charisma 12, or Dexterity 10 and Charisma 14.

Wrath wrote:

I'm assuming the black,hole stuff is an area effect type deal? If so, it's possible,to,drop those so they target bad guy and miss your companions. It does require some co ordinated movement for the players to ensure they're engaging the baddy and still allow you a clean area to drop your area effect so it just catches Mr Bad in the zone.

It was difficult to justify using AoE abilities on singular enemies when it would have been better to keep swinging with Weapon Focus and a +1 damage bonus.

Having Charisma 14 (i.e. being hit more often) would not have changed that.

[Wikrin]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

I knew what I was signing up for as a 1st-level solarian, however.

That you intentionally built in a subpar manner in order to justify your "one true build" assumption. I don't really know how viable this data can be when you intentionally dump their core stat and then claim their class abilities are useless since you dumped the stat they go off of and also had no Resolve.

I don't normally find myself agreeing with you this much, Rysky, but I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't know that it was intentional, though; biases color our actions and perceptions in more ways than we realize.

[Aratrok]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

I knew what I was signing up for as a 1st-level solarian, however.

That you intentionally built in a subpar manner in order to justify your "one true build" assumption. I don't really know how viable this data can be when you intentionally dump their core stat and then claim their class abilities are useless since you dumped the stat they go off of and also had no Resolve.

Strength is a melee solarian's core stat. It determines the magnitude of their primary contribution to the party. Charisma is used to increase the DC of some of their weaker and more replaceable options, and gives them extra Resolve if they don't multiclass.

I'm pretty sure doing less damage and having more resolve wouldn't have made them drop enemies before teammates started going down. The extra resolve points wouldn't have even done anything.

Wrath wrote:

I'm assuming the black,hole stuff is an area effect type deal? If so, it's possible,to,drop those so they target bad guy and miss your companions. It does require some co ordinated movement for the players to ensure they're engaging the baddy and still allow you a clean area to drop your area effect so it just catches Mr Bad in the zone.

Unsure how experienced you are in this type of game sorry. It just sounds like the way you were discussing it, you weren't using area effect on single opponents.

Black Hole and Supernova can only be used every 3 rounds in a fight, and you have to pick which one you want to use 3 rounds before it becomes available. Black Hole lets you force enemies within 20 feet to save versus being pulled 10 feet closer as a standard action- it's basically a waste of your turn almost always. Supernova lets you deal 1d6 + 1d6/level Fire damage to all creatures (including allies) within 10 feet of you as a standard action, Reflex for half- it's a mediocre AoE that's difficult to hit multiple targets with, and the save is pretty easy to make. It's also very rarely worth activating.

[Colette Brunel]

Aratrok wrote:

I'm pretty sure doing less damage and having more resolve wouldn't have made them drop enemies before teammates started going down. The extra resolve points wouldn't have even done anything.

This is correct. If I had opted for Charisma 14, my character would have gone unconscious earlier, thereby forcing the other two PCs to scramble about to get me back on my feet.

Here is a direct quote from my GM concerning the solarian:

"I looked through solarion [sic] myself before the first iteration of this game, when I thought another friend of mine might be playing, and solarian was [not taken by me]. I really couldn't see a build any different to [mine] being anywhere near as good. Solarion [sic] simply isn't as cha-dependent as it wants to be, and where it is dependent- resolve points- it isn't dependent in a fun way."

Even my GM thought me justified in taking Dexterity 14 over Charisma 14, and it still did not pan out.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

When I say Core stat I mean the game definition of Core stat, which for a Solarion is Charisma.

Boosting your strength up that high severely impeded your other stats, if you were building them as a tank you probably should have invested in CON/DEX rather than dumping it all into STR.

And Resolve does plenty of things. It lets you regain all your stamina outside of a fight, and you can use it to regain consciousness and get back into the fight.

[Colette Brunel]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Boosting your strength up that high severely impeded your other stats, if you were building them as a tank you probably should have invested in CON/DEX rather than dumping it all into STR.

And Resolve does plenty of things. It lets you regain all your stamina outside of a fight, and you can use it to regain consciousness and get back into the fight.

My character was not supposed to be a "tank." They were supposed to be a frontliner, dealing heavy damage to enemies to the tune of 1d8+5, while threatening enemies with attacks of opportunity from reach.

If I had opted for a lower Strength, then my character would have been flailing around even more ineffectually by virtue of not contributing to the goal of "make the enemies dead."

Also, as per page 251, Resolve can keep you in a fight only if you are stable, or if you were knocked unconscious by nonlethal damage. It is not just something you can do when an enemy sends you to 0 HP through lethal damage. You cannot spend Resolve Points to stabilize and to get back into battle during the same turn, and someone stabilizing you with healing is probably going to also restore your Hit Points simultaneously.

Resolve would have allowed me to recover SP, but being hit less often (e.g. from having higher Dexterity) would have prevented SP/HP loss. That actually happened during the session a few times; Dexterity was paying off. It ultimately was not enough.

[Aratrok]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

When I say Core stat I mean the game definition of Core stat, which for a Solarion is Charisma.

Boosting your strength up that high severely impeded your other stats, if you were building them as a tank you probably should have invested in CON/DEX rather than dumping it all into STR.

And Resolve does plenty of things. It lets you regain all your stamina outside of a fight, and you can use it to regain consciousness and get back into the fight.

You're thinking of key ability score. And you're also thinking of a version of point buy that didn't make it into Starfinder- reducing Strength by 2 or 4 just means 2 or 4 more points in other ability scores, while putting you further away from being able to do your main job effectively. Starfinder punishes you for spreading your points around, forcing you to make pretty harsh decisions if you have the misfortune of being a MAD class like Solarian.

[FLite]

Further, Str does very little for your damage, past first or second level. With no STRx1.5 to two handed weapons, you are looking at a piddling +2 to damage.
If you wanted a real test, you needed to get someone who enjoys a solarian and wants to play them. And then send them through the adventure with the same party you played through the first time.

Not a completely different party.

[Colette Brunel]

FLite wrote:

Further, Str does very little for your damage, past first or second level. With no STRx1.5 to two handed weapons, you are looking at a piddling +2 to damage.

Strength also affects attack bonus, which is important for hitting and actually neutralizing enemies.

That is rather important for a character banking on their attacks and their attacks of opportunity.

[Icehawk]

And given the comparative rarity of combat buffs in the game, every +1 matters a lot more. Of course, depending on what the rules in the bestiary in October says about how ac is decided, it might throw the calculations off.

Really annoyed that such an important book comes out two months later. If it comes out ac isn't beholden to gear but to cr or something it could change a lot.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Aratrok wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

When I say Core stat I mean the game definition of Core stat, which for a Solarion is Charisma.

Boosting your strength up that high severely impeded your other stats, if you were building them as a tank you probably should have invested in CON/DEX rather than dumping it all into STR.

And Resolve does plenty of things. It lets you regain all your stamina outside of a fight, and you can use it to regain consciousness and get back into the fight.

You're thinking of key ability score. And you're also thinking of a version of point buy that didn't make it into Starfinder- reducing Strength by 2 or 4 just means 2 or 4 more points in other ability scores, while putting you further away from being able to do your main job effectively. Starfinder punishes you for spreading your points around, forcing you to make pretty harsh decisions if you have the misfortune of being a MAD class like Solarian.

I know how the point but works in Starfinder.

And uh, no, Starfinder encrouages spreading points around, especially with how the stat increases at every 5 levels work. Dumping all your points into one thing at the. Grinning just leaves you a glass cannon.

[Colette Brunel]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

And uh, no, Starfinder encrouages spreading points around, especially with how the stat increases at every 5 levels work. Dumping all your points into one thing at the. Grinning just leaves you a glass cannon.

Meanwhile, a 1st-level human melee soldier (blitz) can take Strength 18 and Dexterity 14 and be on their merry way.

Why does a solarian have to put up with, "Sorry, but your key ability modifier is Charisma?" That serves no mechanical purpose but to downgrade solarians with MAD.

A 1st-level human melee soldier (blitz) who does opt for Strength 18 and Dexterity 14 can then take the rest of their levels in solarian, with the usual Stellar Rush at solarian 2, Plasma Sheath at solarian 4, and Corona at solarian 6. This makes them a more practical and playable solarian than a pure-classed solarian ever could be.

Constitution is not particularly important for durability in Starfinder. Our first party had absolutely no trouble with the combat encounters, and they had Constitution scores of 10, 10, 10, and 12.

[Aratrok]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

I know how the point but works in Starfinder.

And uh, no, Starfinder encrouages spreading points around, especially with how the stat increases at every 5 levels work. Dumping all your points into one thing at the. Grinning just leaves you a glass cannon.

You get a marginal benefit of a net +1 to a secondary or tertiary ability score over the course of your entire career if you don't buy an 18 at level 1. That's it. You don't even get any benefit at all until level 5.

A point buy system that made higher ability scores more expensive per-point than lower ability scores would encourage spreading your points around. Point-for-point costs encourages specialization, since it costs just as much to get another +1 on your most important score as it does to add +1 to something less important.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

You still need CON and WIS for saves. And the Soldier isn't really MAD you are correct, they are hyper focused. As opposed to the Solarion which does a bunch of different things.

You're multivlassing and build suggestion only works if you care about damage, which if you do you should probably build a Soldier, since that is their whole thing, as opposed to then Solarion which does all sorts of stuff depending on how you build them.

If your first party had absolutely no problem with combat encounters then your second one shouldn't have either with the weakened encounters, other than the dice being against you in which case it wouldn't have mattered what class you picked. The Solarion isn't some harbinger of Ill omen.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Aratrok wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

I know how the point but works in Starfinder.

And uh, no, Starfinder encrouages spreading points around, especially with how the stat increases at every 5 levels work. Dumping all your points into one thing at the. Grinning just leaves you a glass cannon.

You get a marginal benefit of a net +1 to a secondary or tertiary ability score over the course of your entire career if you don't buy an 18 at level 1. That's it. You don't even get any benefit at all until level 5.

A point buy system that made higher ability scores more expensive per-point than lower ability scores would encourage spreading your points around. Point-for-point costs encourages specialization, since it costs just as much to get another +1 on your most important score as it does to add +1 to something less important.

Until you factor in every 5 levels and the boosts they give. Specialization is not encouraged in a Starfinder unless you're only going to play at level 1 forever.

[Ikiry0]

FLite wrote:

If you wanted a real test, you needed to get someone who enjoys a solarian and wants to play them. And then send them through the adventure with the same party you played through the first time.

Not a completely different party.

I'm not really sure positive thinking would have done wonders for the characters survivability. Solarians didn't take the +Cha to save from the paladin to make happy thoughts a viable defence.

[Colette Brunel]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

You still need CON and WIS for saves.

A human, half-elf, or half-orc melee soldier or solarian simply cannot afford points in Constitution or Wisdom at 1st level. Their point-buy points are in fierce competition between Strength, Dexterity, and, for a solarian, maybe Charisma.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

And the Soldier isn't really MAD you are correct, they are hyper focused. As opposed to the Solarion which does a bunch of different things.

You're multivlassing and build suggestion only works if you care about damage, which if you do you should probably build a Soldier, since that is their whole thing, as opposed to then Solarion which does all sorts of stuff depending on how you build them.

A bunch of different things such as, in the case of the character I played, using Black Hole or Supernova. Which never came up. This is a setting wherein non-animalistic creatures are aware of the existence of a variety of AoE effects, from grenades to blast weapons.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

If your first party had absolutely no problem with combat encounters then your second one shouldn't have either with the weakened encounters, other than the dice being against you in which case it wouldn't have mattered what class you picked. The Solarion isn't some harbinger of Ill omen.

At the very least, my character would have been alive due to being something like a melee soldier (blitz) with Strength for Resolve Points.

khadgar567 wrote:

Looks like another biased post did you say i buy weapon when my class gives me one. That tactical pike was kinda useless and rysky kinda disected your build already so thanks for kinda useless game report

The tactical pike gives reach (which, in Starfinder, can hit adjacent enemies) and 1d8 base damage.

A solar weapon has no reach and 1d6 base damage.

I will take the tactical pike, thank you.

[Aratrok]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Aratrok wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

I know how the point but works in Starfinder.

And uh, no, Starfinder encrouages spreading points around, especially with how the stat increases at every 5 levels work. Dumping all your points into one thing at the. Grinning just leaves you a glass cannon.

You get a marginal benefit of a net +1 to a secondary or tertiary ability score over the course of your entire career if you don't buy an 18 at level 1. That's it. You don't even get any benefit at all until level 5.

A point buy system that made higher ability scores more expensive per-point than lower ability scores would encourage spreading your points around. Point-for-point costs encourages specialization, since it costs just as much to get another +1 on your most important score as it does to add +1 to something less important.

Until you factor in every 5 levels and the boosts they give. Specialization is not encouraged in a Starfinder unless you're only going to play at level 1 forever.

That is factoring in ability score boosts every 5 levels. The benefits for spreading your points around are vanishingly small.

[Ikiry0]

Yeah, having 4 stats you can raise when you get stat ups means that you can get +2 to them for longer if you don't spread about. While in chargen, 1 point gives +1 to a stat.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

You still need CON and WIS for saves.

A human, half-elf, or half-orc melee soldier or solarian simply cannot afford points in Constitution or Wisdom at 1st level. Their point-buy points are in fierce competition between Strength, Dexterity, and, for a solarian, maybe Charisma.

This is just not true.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Aratrok wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Aratrok wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

I know how the point but works in Starfinder.

And uh, no, Starfinder encrouages spreading points around, especially with how the stat increases at every 5 levels work. Dumping all your points into one thing at the. Grinning just leaves you a glass cannon.

You get a marginal benefit of a net +1 to a secondary or tertiary ability score over the course of your entire career if you don't buy an 18 at level 1. That's it. You don't even get any benefit at all until level 5.

A point buy system that made higher ability scores more expensive per-point than lower ability scores would encourage spreading your points around. Point-for-point costs encourages specialization, since it costs just as much to get another +1 on your most important score as it does to add +1 to something less important.

Until you factor in every 5 levels and the boosts they give. Specialization is not encouraged in a Starfinder unless you're only going to play at level 1 forever.

That is factoring in ability score boosts every 5 levels. The benefits for spreading your points around are vanishingly small.

Not really, a +2 to 4 stats if they are 16 or lower is incredibly nice, and for 17 and up +1 to 4 stats.

[Colette Brunel]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

You still need CON and WIS for saves.

A human, half-elf, or half-orc melee soldier or solarian simply cannot afford points in Constitution or Wisdom at 1st level. Their point-buy points are in fierce competition between Strength, Dexterity, and, for a solarian, maybe Charisma.

This is just not true.

A human, half-elf, or half-orc melee soldier starting at 1st level starts with Strength 18 and Dexterity 14, end of story. Strength confers attack bonus and damage bonus. Dexterity gives them AC, initiative, Reflex, a better attack bonus for backup ranged attacks, and skills.

A human, half-elf, or half-orc melee solarian starting at 1st level is probably going to have Strength 18, Dexterity 14, and Charisma 10; Strength 18, Dexterity 12, and Charisma 12; or Strength 18, Dexterity 10, and Charisma 14.

In both cases, Constitution and Wisdom simply do not have room in the metaphorical picture.

[Colette Brunel]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Not really, a +2 to 4 stats if they are 16 or lower is incredibly nice, and for 17 and up +1 to 4 stats.

Here is how I see a melee soldier (blitz) 1/solarian (solar weapon) 19 spreading their ability scores, before theme and before personal upgrades:

• 1st-level: Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 10, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 10
• 5th-level: Strength 19, Dexterity 16, Constitution 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 10
• 10th-level: Strength 20, Dexterity 18, Constitution 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 10
• 15th-level: Strength 21, Dexterity 19, Constitution 16, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 16, Charisma 10
• 20th-level: Strength 22, Dexterity 20, Constitution 18, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 18, Charisma 10

A nice thing here is that unlike a pure-classed solarian, a melee soldier (blitz) 1/solarian (solar weapon) 19 will actually be raising their Wisdom, thereby making it less likely for them to succumb to Will-save-forcers.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

You still need CON and WIS for saves.

A human, half-elf, or half-orc melee soldier or solarian simply cannot afford points in Constitution or Wisdom at 1st level. Their point-buy points are in fierce competition between Strength, Dexterity, and, for a solarian, maybe Charisma.

This is just not true.

A human, half-elf, or half-orc melee soldier starting at 1st level starts with Strength 18 and Dexterity 14, end of story. Strength confers attack bonus and damage bonus. Dexterity gives them AC, initiative, Reflex, a better attack bonus for backup ranged attacks, and skills.

A human, half-elf, or half-orc melee solarian starting at 1st level is probably going to have Strength 18, Dexterity 14, and Charisma 10; Strength 18, Dexterity 12, and Charisma 12; or Strength 18, Dexterity 10, and Charisma 14.

In both cases, Constitution and Wisdom simply do not have room in the metaphorical picture.

If you never intend to get hit they don't. But you are going to get hit.

Also I went back and checked and CON also affects your Stamina as well every level. So yeah, that's still very necessary.

[IonutRO]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

And uh, no, Starfinder encrouages spreading points around, especially with how the stat increases at every 5 levels work. Dumping all your points into one thing at the. Grinning just leaves you a glass cannon.

Meanwhile, a 1st-level human melee soldier (blitz) can take Strength 18 and Dexterity 14 and be on their merry way.

Why does a solarian have to put up with, "Sorry, but your key ability modifier is Charisma?" That serves no mechanical purpose but to downgrade solarians with MAD.

A 1st-level human melee soldier (blitz) who does opt for Strength 18 and Dexterity 14 can then take the rest of their levels in solarian, with the usual Stellar Rush at solarian 2, Plasma Sheath at solarian 4, and Corona at solarian 6. This makes them a more practical and playable solarian than a pure-classed solarian ever could be.

Constitution is not particularly important for durability in Starfinder. Our first party had absolutely no trouble with the combat encounters, and they had Constitution scores of 10, 10, 10, and 12.

What if we give Solarians a choice of either Str or Cha as their primary ability score?

[Colette Brunel]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

If you never intend to get hit they don't. But you are going to get hit.

You also want to do some hitting yourself, of course, and that is why having a high attack ability score is important.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Also I went back and checked and CON also affects your Stamina as well every level. So yeah, that's still very necessary.

Of course it does. Between the large amounts of SP and HP characters gain each level though, Constitution produces marginal gains compared to what it did in Pathfinder.

Dexterity is simply the better choice as it currently stands, since it avoids hits in the first place, Reflex saving throws are more common due to grenades and the like, and initiative and skills are nice to have.

[Colette Brunel]

IonutRO wrote:

What if we give Solarians a choice of either Str or Cha as their primary ability score?

That would surely be a very helpful improvement to the class, and make the one-level dip in soldier (blitz) less mandatory.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Not really, a +2 to 4 stats if they are 16 or lower is incredibly nice, and for 17 and up +1 to 4 stats.

Here is how I see a melee soldier (blitz) 1/solarian (solar weapon) 19 spreading their ability scores, before theme and before personal upgrades:

• 1st-level: Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 10, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 10
• 5th-level: Strength 19, Dexterity 16, Constitution 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 10
• 10th-level: Strength 20, Dexterity 18, Constitution 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 10
• 15th-level: Strength 21, Dexterity 19, Constitution 16, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 16, Charisma 10
• 20th-level: Strength 22, Dexterity 20, Constitution 18, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 18, Charisma 10

A nice thing here is that unlike a pure-classed solarian, a melee soldier (blitz) 1/solarian (solar weapon) 19 will actually be raising their Wisdom, thereby making it less likely for them to succumb to Will-save-forcers.

As opposed to:

• 1st-level: Strength 14, Dexterity 14, Constitution 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 12
• 5th-level: Strength 16, Dexterity 16, Constitution 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 14
• 10th-level: Strength 18, Dexterity 18, Constitution 16, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 16
• 15th-level: Strength 19, Dexterity 19, Constitution 18, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 16
• 20th-level: Strength 20, Dexterity 20, Constitution 18, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 18

You miss out on a +1 to STR to have better stats elsewhere.

[Colette Brunel]

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

As opposed to:

• 1st-level: Strength 14, Dexterity 14, Constitution 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 12
• 5th-level: Strength 16, Dexterity 16, Constitution 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 14
• 10th-level: Strength 18, Dexterity 18, Constitution 16, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 16
• 15th-level: Strength 19, Dexterity 19, Constitution 18, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 16
• 20th-level: Strength 20, Dexterity 20, Constitution 18, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 18

You miss out on a +1 to STR to have better stats elsewhere.

You will also miss.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

If you never intend to get hit they don't. But you are going to get hit.

You also want to do some hitting yourself, of course, and that is why having a high attack ability score is important.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Also I went back and checked and CON also affects your Stamina as well every level. So yeah, that's still very necessary.

Of course it does. Between the large amounts of SP and HP characters gain each level though, Constitution produces marginal gains compared to what it did in Pathfinder.

Dexterity is simply the better choice as it currently stands, since it avoids hits in the first place, Reflex saving throws are more common due to grenades and the like, and initiative and skills are nice to have.

Yes killing stuff before they kill you is preferable, but making yourself a glass cannon doesn't ensure that.

Uh, no they have the same gains in Starfinder that they had in Pathfinder. You are going to get hit in this game, so having a high DEX to make sure you get hit less is nice, it does not make you unhittable. Same in Pathfinder.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

As opposed to:

• 1st-level: Strength 14, Dexterity 14, Constitution 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 12
• 5th-level: Strength 16, Dexterity 16, Constitution 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 14
• 10th-level: Strength 18, Dexterity 18, Constitution 16, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 16
• 15th-level: Strength 19, Dexterity 19, Constitution 18, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 16
• 20th-level: Strength 20, Dexterity 20, Constitution 18, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 18

You miss out on a +1 to STR to have better stats elsewhere.

You will also miss.

That's a slight possibility that's heavily mitigated by other factors, not least of all being how much the dice likes you. From 1-4 I'm behind by only 2, and from then on I'm only behind by 1.

But I have much more HP/SP and Resolve as well.

[Colette Brunel]

Starfinder's point-buy at 1st-level works on a 1:1 basis. If your game starts at 1st level, you might as well put an 18 in your "do your main offensive job" ability score in order to make the enemies fall down dead or disabled. Yes, that includes mystics and technomancers, who make enemies fall down dead or disabled with their spells.

By shoring up your survivability, you are also sacrificing your offense, which means your continued survival means less.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Starfinder's point-buy at 1st-level works on a 1:1 basis. If your game starts at 1st level, you might as well put an 18 in your "do your main offensive job" ability score in order to make the enemies fall down dead or disabled. Yes, that includes mystics and technomancers, who make enemies fall down dead or disabled with their spells.

I also intend to play past level 1.

Colette Brunel wrote:

By shoring up your survivability, you are also sacrificing your offense, which means your continued survival means less.

That only works if you're operating on the assumption that you will always get to act first, always drop the enemies before they can act, and never get hit. Which is not gonna happen. You're not always going to get to go before the enemy, you're not going to be able to kill every enemy before they can act every fight, and you are going to get hit.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Holy smokes you guys, 14 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Cha and mostly 10's across the board are pretty good stats for a 1st level Solarian. Heck depending on your race choice bump up one or two of those 14s to a 16.

I built a Solarian (Oni-Blooded Tiefling, Priest Theme) the other day (they get penalty to Charisma). Sacrificing Constitution by keeping it at 10 isn't really too bad at level 1, your stamina and hp will still keep you up even in melee.

But the idea of completely ignoring the class features in favor of making a worse soldier?

It's like taking a Monk, throwing it in heavy armor and then being annoyed that it's not competing with the Paladin.

[YogoZuno]

Quote:

I am confident that the operative (ghost) would be significantly less potent if the GM takes Mark Seifter's word and removes the +4 to the ghost's trick attacks

I don't see anything about this at all in the Starfinder FAQ, and a search of the rules forum didn't turn anything up. Are you able to provide a reference somewhere?

[sunderedhero]

YogoZuno wrote:

Quote:

I am confident that the operative (ghost) would be significantly less potent if the GM takes Mark Seifter's word and removes the +4 to the ghost's trick attacks

I don't see anything about this at all in the Starfinder FAQ, and a search of the rules forum didn't turn anything up. Are you able to provide a reference somewhere?

As you said it's not in the FAQ or errata so it's not official, that said here's the link.