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I like that crafting feats are not required. I even like that crafting does not reduce the cost. It makes it fair and preserves game balance.
I don't like that selling back items only gets you 10% of the market value. That's going to bug the heck out of me.
If there's no cost savings to crafting, because of the "economy of scale", then market values should be very close to the raw material costs.
I could accept selling gear being closer to 90%. The middle man gets to make a profit.
If selling back items is 10%, then crafting should only cost 10% imho.
If crafting costs full market value, then selling back items should be closer to full market value imho.
This is going to be a thorn or itch in my brain every time I play now.
I believe it is to allow for providing higher level consumable equipment to players without necessarily breaking WBL by finding a fortune in grenades or something. Or something to that effect.
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"Here, buy these blood-covered guns without warranty that are certainly not illegally acquired and I'm not trying to get rid of because an angry mob boss is tracking them down with divinations."
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On page 166 they provide the reasoning:
"Since any equipment sold by PCs comes without the guarantees and reputation of major merchants and producers (and may be broken, cursed, defective, or stolen)"
Basically the buyer is taking the risks so they are only willing to give so much for the item.
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It's about game balance.
Imagine an in universe reason that makes sense for you, but at the end of the day if you're (approximately) on the WBL track for characters that's what matters.
If you want them to sell items for 50% normal cost that's fine, so long as you set it up that they can't sell all their old gear so that they stay on track for WBL.
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Arms dealing is VERY competitive market.
Never take it lightly.
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And also, if you've ever sold a used video game to Gamestop...
Well, 10% is about right. xD
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As a house rule, what would people here recommend? I could see something like:
"Base buyback rate is 10%. With a Diplomacy check, for every 5 points above 15, increase the buyback by 5%, to a maximum of 25% (DC 30)."
That way, it still doesn't blow up the market like a 50% or higher rate would, and the players with great bargaining skills get a moment to shine.
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Honestly 10% seems pretty normal to me. That is basically dealing with the pawn shop/grey/black market type dealers. Raw materials would be more useful to them because they could make them into whatever gun they want. Completed guns are just completed guns of dubious ownership and already used/worn.
It is like taking taking a brand new car off the lot and it loses 5k off its value immediately due to depreciation. Now have a person trying to sell that car from some random guy they murdered on another planet that may or may not be traceable and see what kind of cash anybody is willing to give you for it.
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Also with the way they do the ship ownership/improvement some of the sale value may also be in kind trade goods needed for upkeep/upgrading of your ship.
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As a house rule, what would people here recommend? I could see something like:
"Base buyback rate is 10%. With a Diplomacy check, for every 5 points above 15, increase the buyback by 5%, to a maximum of 25% (DC 30)."
That way, it still doesn't blow up the market like a 50% or higher rate would, and the players with great bargaining skills get a moment to shine.
Diplomacy check should probably scale as 20 + 1.5 x item level. Reduce the DC by five if you spend at least a week to find a good buyer for a given item.
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Cleaning and repairing gear is easy (through magic or mundane skills).
If a piece of equipment (armor, computers, tools, and yes: weapons) carries a major manufacturer's brand name, then the "reputation" of the manufacturer should still be worth something.
A used car still has some brand name reputation recognition. Toyota's are reliable... Yugo, Ford Pinto or Chevy Vega.... meehhhh, not so much.
Warranties are also meaningless without game mechanics saying what a vendor's return policy looks like. There's no game mechanics difference between buying from a brand name outlet store, and mom and pop corner shop.
In a game where there are no game mechanics for brand new equipment stats vs. used equipment, there is no in-game reason to charge differently for them. If it were an option, I'd look for the pawn shop selling used gear for 20% of market value.
I agree that depreciation is a thing. I was ok with Pathfinder and previous versions of D&D only offering 50% of market value... but that was balance by 50% to craft magic items.
How about this: there is no cost reduction for crafting, so raw materials cost = the finished item's market value. Salvage gear then, and break them down to the raw materials, and sell the raw materials as Trade Goods at full value. Go Recycling! That would be a great positive message to save the environment. ;-)
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It may also have something to do with the UBPs or whatever the abbreviation is. (Universal Build Somethings) that most everything is made of. They're 1 to 1 for credits, but perhaps deconstruction isn't an option (once they're manufactured into a form, they can't be turned back into functional UBPs). This produces a society that is very big on custom, personalized _everything_, and a reluctance for off the shelf (and bloody, battered, used) equipment. If it can't be customized to just the right shade of velvety lavender with a widget just so on the back, the customer will pass.
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It's just too bad that there's only one group of player characters the universe.
I mean, a 19th-level PC can find someone willing to sell a mind-bogglingly advanced plasma rifle, that costs the amount of money that a normal person makes in 600 years, in any average settlement. But nowhere in the universe can they find another adventurer who'd be as happy as they would to buy used at a discount.
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Just realized this really encourages necromancy. Can't sell weapons for much? Make undead to wield it. Wildly inaccurate, but a good distraction.
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Just realized this really encourages necromancy. Can't sell weapons for much? Make undead to wield it. Wildly inaccurate, but a good distraction.
One thing I noticed is that animating undead is no longer an evil act in Starfinder. As best I can tell, no spell except Planar Binding has the "Evil" or "Good" descriptor.
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One other thing to note in starfinder. A lot of weapons/armor/vehicles you are looting from other tech foes could very well have a lot of data trail on them. Serial numbers, where they were made, when, by who, who the owners were that may be somewhat hard to erase or manipulate to "clean the title".
Its a lot easier to sell some random magic sword you found in some dragons hoard than some military rifle that for good reasons is likely well documented.
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Then why can't I buy second hand weapons for 10% of their market price?
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Are there any rules for breaking down gear into UPBs so that you can then use the resources to craft new stuff?
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Are there any rules for breaking down gear into UPBs so that you can then use the resources to craft new stuff?
10%, barring very high level Mechanic shenanigans.
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Sadly, no explicit rules for breaking down UPBs, but they can be reconfigured or reshaped by programming. Think nanobots from Stargate.
Also, as much as I like the recycling idea, that could be explained by the Engineering roll to "Earn a Living" as described in the profession skill.
i imagine selling a ship at 10% of it sticker price is more then enough.
I don't mean your ship, I mean the ones you capture.
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If I had to guess, that probably has something to do with Eox being part of the Pact Worlds...
That's... beyond stupid if it turns out to be the reason -_-
Did they petition the metaphysical laws of the universe and get a bunch of signatures or something???
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That's... beyond stupid if it turns out to be the reason -_-
Did they petition the metaphysical laws of the universe and get a bunch of signatures or something???
The Eoxian Ambassador to Pharasma kindly requested that the act of ripping shreds of a soul and cramming it into a vessel to no longer carry the metaphysical stigma of evil.
Yup, sounds right to me.
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I read about this in the CRB, and my first thought was that this thread must exist. I knew some people wouldn't be happy.
As a GM, I actually like this bit of game balance quite a bit. With a new, easier to track encumbrance system, players are going to run up against the anguish of maxing out on how much loot they can carry (the Borderlands problem, if you will). The knowledge that all those guns and swords are worth just 10% will make it easier for them to ditch the bulkiest items.
Additionally, by making looted equipment less valuable, more playstyles open up. Weapons can be treated like consumables (especially the ones that are consumables), and sunder builds are suddenly much less terrible to your WBL.
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I remember a lot of cases in Pathfinder of finding interesting magic items and then selling them immediately because they were overpriced in the rulebook.
And cases where it was hard to make NPC enemies who could challenge the PCs without loading them down with gear that the PCs would loot and sell for a fortune.
So I think this might be a good thing.
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While I agree that heroes carrying around Stormtrooper armor to sell off at the next pawnshop doesn't fit the genre too well, I'm not sure it fixes that.
It might just mean they need to sell ten times as many to break even.
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While I agree that heroes carrying around Stormtrooper armor to sell off at the next pawnshop doesn't fit the genre too well, I'm not sure it fixes that.
It might just mean they need to sell ten times as many to break even.
Combined with the advise regarding sponsorship rewards and other types of awards aside from "loot" awards, I think it does. Basically, if the Players break the mindset of loot to win and the GM supports that break effectively, the resell value of looted goods becomes effectively meaningless.
If you want to play pirates, the "trade goods" section makes for more genre-like looting of goods that you don't have to worry about the 10% resell value wit.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Just realized this really encourages necromancy. Can't sell weapons for much? Make undead to wield it. Wildly inaccurate, but a good distraction.One thing I noticed is that animating undead is no longer an evil act in Starfinder. As best I can tell, no spell except Planar Binding has the "Evil" or "Good" descriptor.
Maybe new developments in spell research have allowed these effects without drawing on the dark energies of the lower planes? It's a new, environmentally friendly necromancy.
They're also powered by Furbies now.
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I'd say there should be a feat or an operative and/or envoy talent pickup that bumps that up to say 30%. Kinda like the old Pathfinder Black Market Connections talent but actually useful!
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Maybe new developments in spell research have allowed these effects without drawing on the dark energies of the lower planes? It's a new, environmentally friendly necromancy.Just realized this really encourages necromancy. Can't sell weapons for much? Make undead to wield it. Wildly inaccurate, but a good distraction.One thing I noticed is that animating undead is no longer an evil act in Starfinder. As best I can tell, no spell except Planar Binding has the "Evil" or "Good" descriptor.
Then how comes Urgathoa is still NE ?
I read about this in the CRB, and my first thought was that this thread must exist. I knew some people wouldn't be happy.
As a GM, I actually like this bit of game balance quite a bit. With a new, easier to track encumbrance system, players are going to run up against the anguish of maxing out on how much loot they can carry (the Borderlands problem, if you will). The knowledge that all those guns and swords are worth just 10% will make it easier for them to ditch the bulkiest items.
Additionally, by making looted equipment less valuable, more playstyles open up. Weapons can be treated like consumables (especially the ones that are consumables), and sunder builds are suddenly much less terrible to your WBL.
I definitely like the idea of reducing the looter mentality.
It will be really hard to shake for some people, though. I just finally convinced my fellow players that looting every sword dagger and leather armor isn't worth the time in a 5e game - and we're level 5. I don't even think I would have convinced them if I wasn't tracking loot for the campaign. I simply told them I'm not writing those down anymore and eventually they caved.
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Not many genre specific examples of the "loot the bodies" syndrome.What about the Fremen tradition of distributing the goods of their dead as part of the mourning ceremony ?
What about Space Pirates for that matter ?
I don't recall the part of the story where the Fremen then went gallavanting to the market to sell the departed's goods so they could upgrade their own.
I already addressed pirates in the very post you quoted.
Not many genre specific examples of the "loot the bodies" syndrome.What about the Fremen tradition of distributing the goods of their dead as part of the mourning ceremony ?
What about it? That involves meaningful items being taken by companions, friends and family in veneration of the dead, not selling them for cash.
What about Space Pirates for that matter ?
Trade goods, and yeah, they'll take weapons... to arm the next set of expendable recruits.
There are reasons to take stuff, but it isn't necessarily to turn stripped gear into piles of cash.
The only downside to this system is it pretty much stomps on grey areas- there are going to be people who want to buy, and there is a weird line wear a sealed factory shipment of equipment comes into PC hands and suddenly depreciates in value.
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You get some really interesting effects from this as well: for one, found consumables are really useful for both GMs and players, as the GM can drop plenty of expensive consumables for players to use without a turnaround sale for a big permanent item. Another effect reveals one of solar weapon solarian's biggest advantages: you can wait for weapon crystals to drop without falling much at all behind on damage, possibly even if you never spend money on weapons.
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Magic item crafting feats are, by far, the most broken and overpowered feats in the game (specially craft woundreous). The reason is because it breaks the assumption than what you find actually matters. It becomes a differeny assumption, where everything you find is transformed in equal value of optimal gear for your current build.
In a game with the most powerful, broken and OP feat being gifted for free I think it is common sense to challenge said assumption.
I think that the most annoying thing about only getting to sell for a portion of the crafting cost, is that you're not really capable of making a living by crafting items. What used to be an optional, but useful supply of income in campaigns that otherwise wouldn't get that much in terms of income; since they may be fighting monsters who don't tend to carry loot on them (besides like... Pelts I guess), is no longer there.
That said, this does make for a case where suddenly the Cyberpunk elements aren't going half measure with the "corps are ruining things for people" angle. Imagine the corps not only choosing to hire mindless machines to do all the corp's work so nobody can get their money, but nobody can even make money at all trying to compete with them, they only lose money.
Hard for literally anyone in such a situation to be content with that. Which straight up makes this a whole lot less infuriating than the "darker moral greys" that some of the other cyberpunk games I've been in.
... Or maybe its just my Shadowrun GM that plays it as "you're bad and you should feel bad".
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You get some really interesting effects from this as well: for one, found consumables are really useful for both GMs and players, as the GM can drop plenty of expensive consumables for players to use without a turnaround sale for a big permanent item. Another effect reveals one of solar weapon solarian's biggest advantages: you can wait for weapon crystals to drop without falling much at all behind on damage, possibly even if you never spend money on weapons.
'To drop?' Are starfinder opponents Diablo-style loot pinatas?
Weapon crystals seem oddly specific things for someone to have for no reason, especially if they have no real monetary value.
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You get some really interesting effects from this as well: for one, found consumables are really useful for both GMs and players, as the GM can drop plenty of expensive consumables for players to use without a turnaround sale for a big permanent item. Another effect reveals one of solar weapon solarian's biggest advantages: you can wait for weapon crystals to drop without falling much at all behind on damage, possibly even if you never spend money on weapons.'To drop?' Are starfinder opponents Diablo-style loot pinatas?
Weapon crystals seem oddly specific things for someone to have for no reason, especially if they have no real monetary value.
Most likely you'd find them on solarian opponents.