Polymorph and Form-Dependent Abilities

[Lagalot]

Hi. I searched through some old posts, but I still can't find clear answers to some polymorph-related questions. (If it matters, I'm asking from a GM's perspective, regarding monsters with polymorph abilities.) Please help.

From Core Rulebook, Magic section:

Quote:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

Q1. Are the following abilities considered "dependent on form"?

(a) damage reduction #/special material
(b) damage reduction #/magic or alignment
(c) energy resistance/immunity/vulnerability
(d) spell resistance
(e) channel resistance
(f) fast healing
(g) regeneration
(h) aura, e.g. frightful presence, fear aura, unnatural aura
(i) vampire's sunlight vulnerability, drow's light blindness
(j) negative energy affinity
(k) ability damage, ability drain, energy drain

Q2. Since you do not change creature type/subtypes, so do you retain traits associated with the type/subtypes even if the traits are "dependent on form"?

Q3. If answer to question 1c is "yes", does a silver dragon (cold subtype) still lose cold immunity and fire vulnerability when it changes shape into a human?

From Bestiary, Creature Types & Subtypes:

Quote:

Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

-No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
-Darkvision 60 feet.
-Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
-Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
-Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
-Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
-Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
-Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
-Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
-Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Q4. To clarify further, if a lich polymorphs into a wolf, he remains undead...

(a) Does he gain a Constitution score since having no Constitution is dependent on his undead form?
(b) Does he still lose darkvision which is granted to him for being undead (since he remains undead)?
(c) Does he lose immunity to bleed, Str/Dex/Con damage/drain, stunning, poison, effects that require Fort save, massive damage? (These effects seem to depend on physical form.)

Q5. If a ghost druid uses wild shape to become a wolf, does he retain the incorporeal trait and subtype, thereby becoming an incorporeal wolf?

Q6. If a purple worm swallows an elf whole and then becomes a pigeon due to baleful polymorph, what happens to the still-living elf in its stomach?

From Bestiary, Universal Monster Rules:

Quote:

Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.

From Core Rulebook, Magic section:

Quote:

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. [...] From Gargantuan to Medium: Str–12, Dex+4, Con–6

Q7. An ancient silver dragon (Gargantuan dragon) uses change shape to become an elf (Medium humanoid). It does not gain Str+2 from alter self, since change shape does not adjust ability scores from the spell (see above). But does it adjust ability scores for changing size from Gargantuan to Medium?

Thank you.

[Hawkmoon269]

Uh oh. You've wandered into the Card Game forums by accident instead of the RPG forums. Don't worry, it happens from time to time. An admin will be along later to move your thread to the proper forum where you will be more likely to find an answer to your question. In the meantime, I'd suggest checking out the card game. The Mummy's Mask adventure path has a barrier called "Polymorph Gas" in adventure 6. While that doesn't help with your question in anyway, it is tangentially related and a great excuse to try the card game if you haven't already.

[dragonhunterq]

Good question, and it is one that isn't defined nor do I believe it should be. I can see the same ability on two different creatures and on one I will consider it form dependant and on another I won't (for example regeneration on a troll I see as form dependant, on an outsider not necessarily). I want to retain that flexibility to decide for myself.

So I can't answer your (1) in a vacuum.
i) is specific enough, vampires sunlight vulnerability is not form dependant, light blindness for a drow is.

I doubt you will get a consensus on any of it EXCEPT 4a) this is a categorical no, there is no way that an undead creature ever gains a constitution score.

4b&c) I don't see as form dependant, they are inherent to the creature and will transcend it's form.

3) I'd say the immunity/vulnerability are form dependant.

5) yes

6) Either displaced and appears next to the now pigeon or also affected and remains in the pigeons stomach until it is freed where it returns to it's normal size. (but no swallow whole damage as that is almost certainly form dependant).

7) yes you would apply the general polymorph size modifiers.

[Auspician]

Since no one has taken a shot at this yet, I'm going to try to add some clarification. My interpretation is that you keep your supertype but not your type(race) or subtype(subrace). For example, an elven lich would keep their supertype 'Undead' but not their creature type 'lich' or their race 'elf'. All abilities related to being an Undead would remain, and most abilities related to being a lich would be removed (other than specific features not based on body, such as its phylactery).

For clarity, the complete list of supertypes are: Aberrations, Animals, Constructs, Dragons, Fey, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, Outsiders, Plants, Undead, and Vermin.

Lagalot wrote:

Q1. Are the following abilities considered "dependent on form"(and thus lost when you polymorph)?
(a) damage reduction #/special material -
(b) damage reduction #/magic or alignment
(c) energy resistance/immunity/vulnerability
(d) spell resistance
(e) channel resistance
(f) fast healing
(g) regeneration
(h) aura, e.g. frightful presence, fear aura, unnatural aura
(i) vampire's sunlight vulnerability, drow's light blindness
(j) negative energy affinity
(k) ability damage, ability drain, energy drain

A: Yes.

B: Yes.
C: Yes.
D: Yes.
E: Yes.
F: Yes.
G: Yes.
H: Yes.
I: Yes.
J: No, if granted due to the undead supertype.
K: Yes.

Note: All of the foregoing answers assume the ability is granted due to being a creature of that type; if the ability is granted by equipment or class levels then it will never be lost when polymorphing.

Lagalot wrote:

Q2. Since you do not change creature type/subtypes, so do you retain traits associated with the type/subtypes even if the traits are "dependent on form"?

Only your supertype abilities. And you *always* retain all of your supertype abilities.

Lagalot wrote:

Q3. If answer to question 1c is "yes", does a silver dragon (cold subtype) still lose cold immunity and fire vulnerability when it changes shape into a human?

Yes, that is correct. It would lose both abilities.

Lagalot wrote:

Q4. To clarify further, if a lich polymorphs into a wolf, he remains undead...
(a) Does he gain a Constitution score since having no Constitution is dependent on his undead form?
(b) Does he still lose darkvision which is granted to him for being undead (since he remains undead)?
(c) Does he lose immunity to bleed, Str/Dex/Con damage/drain, stunning, poison, effects that require Fort save, massive damage? (These effects seem to depend on physical form.)

A: No, he does not get a Constitution score. His HPs are still dependent on Charisma.

B: No, he keeps Darkvision 60 feet because it is part of the Undead Supertype.
C: No, he keeps all of these things because they are part of the Undead Supertype.

Lagalot wrote:

Q5. If a ghost druid uses wild shape to become a wolf, does he retain the incorporeal trait and subtype, thereby becoming an incorporeal wolf?

No, he would gain a physical form because ghost is a type not a supertype. He would, however, be an undead wolf.

Lagalot wrote:

Q6. If a purple worm swallows an elf whole and then becomes a pigeon due to baleful polymorph, what happens to the still-living elf in its stomach?

The spell functions and the elf is automatically expelled because the creature no longer possesses the Swallow Whole ability.

Lagalot wrote:

Q7. An ancient silver dragon (Gargantuan dragon) uses change shape to become an elf (Medium humanoid). It does not gain Str+2 from alter self, since change shape does not adjust ability scores from the spell (see above). But does it adjust ability scores for changing size from Gargantuan to Medium?

You would adjust the dragon's Strength down by 24 and Dexterity up by 4 as appropriate for becoming medium size (per the Monster Advancement rules, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement), and then apply the +2 Strength for the Alter Self spell. This would take the dragon's Strength to 13, and Dexterity to 12.

I hope that helps in clarifying what can be a confusing set of abilities!

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Auspician, you are very confused, to the point where the clarification value of your post is negative. You misuse the terms type, subtype, race, and subrace, and you made up "supertype" out of whole cloth or got it from someone you did, because there is no such term in Pathfinder.

A normal elf is a humanoid(elf). That's type humanoid, subtype elf. A drow is humanoid(elf, drow). That's type humanoid, subtypes elf and drow. If the drow acquires the lich template, it becomes undead(elf, drow), i.e. type undead, subtypes still elf and drow, because the template changes the type but not the subtypes.

Meanwhile, polymorph spells do not change your type or subtype(s) unless they explicitly say otherwise (which none do).

For the OP's actual questions, just in case they are still wondering four months later:

Lagalot wrote:

Q1. Are the following abilities considered "dependent on form"?

(a) damage reduction #/special material
(b) damage reduction #/magic or alignment
(c) energy resistance/immunity/vulnerability
(d) spell resistance
(e) channel resistance
(f) fast healing
(g) regeneration
(h) aura, e.g. frightful presence, fear aura, unnatural aura
(i) vampire's sunlight vulnerability, drow's light blindness
(j) negative energy affinity
(k) ability damage, ability drain, energy drain

Expect variation by GM and even by creature for almost all of these. That said,

(a) probably not
(b) probably not
(c) probably
(d) probably not
(e) probably not
(f) probably
(g) probably
(h) maybe
(i) no and yes respectively
(j) probably not
(k) probably

Lagalot wrote:

Q2. Since you do not change creature type/subtypes, so do you retain traits associated with the type/subtypes even if the traits are "dependent on form"?

Yes.

Lagalot wrote:

Q3. If answer to question 1c is "yes", does a silver dragon (cold subtype) still lose cold immunity and fire vulnerability when it changes shape into a human?

Probably.

Lagalot wrote:

Q4. To clarify further, if a lich polymorphs into a wolf, he remains undead...

(a) Does he gain a Constitution score since having no Constitution is dependent on his undead form?
(b) Does he still lose darkvision which is granted to him for being undead (since he remains undead)?
(c) Does he lose immunity to bleed, Str/Dex/Con damage/drain, stunning, poison, effects that require Fort save, massive damage? (These effects seem to depend on physical form.)

Since he is an undead wolf, he retains all characteristics inherent to the undead type. So No to all of those.

Lagalot wrote:

Q5. If a ghost druid uses wild shape to become a wolf, does he retain the incorporeal trait and subtype, thereby becoming an incorporeal wolf?

Yes.

Lagalot wrote:

Q6. If a purple worm swallows an elf whole and then becomes a pigeon due to baleful polymorph, what happens to the still-living elf in its stomach?

The important thing is that it is not squished nor polymorphed. What does happen is up to the GM. I would have the elf appear outside the pigeon.

Lagalot wrote:

Q7. An ancient silver dragon (Gargantuan dragon) uses change shape to become an elf (Medium humanoid). It does not gain Str+2 from alter self, since change shape does not adjust ability scores from the spell (see above). But does it adjust ability scores for changing size from Gargantuan to Medium?

Yes.

[Auspician]

Interesting how your answers add 'maybes' and lack of clarification, while my answers, while possibly wrong, have no such ambiguity. May those who come after decide which is of more value.

[Avoron]

Auspician wrote:

Interesting how your answers add 'maybes' and lack of clarification, while my answers, while possibly wrong, have no such ambiguity. May those who come after decide which is of more value.

One meteorologist reporting on the chances of rain is worth more than a hundred psychics telling you they know for sure.

[Diego Rossi]

Auspician wrote:

Interesting how your answers add 'maybes' and lack of clarification, while my answers, while possibly wrong, have no such ambiguity. May those who come after decide which is of more value.

As every kind creature should be treated separately Fuzzy-Wuzzy reply is way more accurate.

As a rule of thumb, most Ex abilities depend on the original form, while most Su abilities don't, but even that is a rule of thumb,not something codified.

Take regeneration as an example:
I see a troll regeneration as form dependent but another GM can easily argue that it don't depend on how many arms or leg you have, but instead depend on the internal structure of the creature, so on its type, not is form, and that it will be retained when polymorphed.

Who is right? None and both. It is a GM interpretation, not something hardwired by the rules.

[James Risner]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Auspician wrote:

Interesting how your answers add 'maybes' and lack of clarification, while my answers, while possibly wrong, have no such ambiguity. May those who come after decide which is of more value.

As every kind creature should be treated separately Fuzzy-Wuzzy reply is way more accurate.

Not to mention the rules explicitly say Auspician is wrong and Fuzzy is right.

Quote:

the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost

[blahpers]

Auspician wrote:

Interesting how your answers add 'maybes' and lack of clarification, while my answers, while possibly wrong, have no such ambiguity. May those who come after decide which is of more value.

Are you seriously arguing that incorrect answers are better than nuanced ones? No wonder our world's in the state it's in.