I thought of something today, and while I'm pretty sure there's no official answer, I thought I'd check.
A being has died from ghoul fever, and is transformed into a ghoul. As part of becoming a ghoul, the being's alignment changes to Chaotic Evil. The ghoul is later slain. Soon after, the being is the target of Raise Dead. Does the being return to life Chaotic Evil?
Would the answer be different if the undead type the being becomes is a vampire, thus retaining the being's intelligence, personality, and experiences?
The ghoul is later slain. Soon after, the being is the target of Raise Dead.
The answer, I believe, is the spell fails as raise dead says it cannot be used to bring back someone who has been turned into the undead.
Resurrection and True Res have clauses covering this and will work.
That said I think your question is on their alignment once brought back from destruction after being undead?
My answer is being a ghoul has the rider of being Chaotic Evil. Getting resurrected and becoming yourself again makes you just that, YOURSELF. Your alignment is still what it was originally since your back to what you WERE originally.
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Ghouls have preset stats, like shadows, wights, wraiths and spectres, and aren't a template, like ghost, vampire or lich, so it *seems* like whatever the ghoul is, it isn't necessarily anything like the individual that possessed that body in life.
For instance, a 1 HD N Commoner or Expert with Int, Wis and Cha scores of 10 and 11 is going to become a 2 HD CE Ghoul with Int, Wis and Cha scores of 13 and 14, so he's *explicitly* not the same person. His skills and feats will also change, so that if he was an amazing pig farmer or fisherman or potter, he's going to lose all that and become skilled at Acrobatics, Climb, Perception, Stealth and Swim, even if he couldn't swim in life, and was the least acrobatic or stealthy human ever.
Short, short version, whatever the hell the Ghoul is, it is mechanically *nothing* like the person that previously occupied that body. Logically, if the ghoul is killed, and then the previous human is recalled from the dead (by whatever means), he shouldn't remember anything the ghoul did in hid body, let alone be affected by it.
In Golarion, there are ghouls who retain class levels, thanks to a material known as lazurite, and *those* ghouls might or might not be different.
Gilfalas, My understanding was that Raise Dead couldn't return someone who is currently undead, because it requires the body. Once an undead is killed, it returns to being plain dead, and would be a valid target.
Set, that's a good point about ghouls. How about template undead, where there is a clear connection between the being and their current identity or behaviour? Clearly a lich is evil even before they become undead, but vampires have no such assurance.
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Gilfalas, My understanding was that Raise Dead couldn't return someone who is currently undead, because it requires the body. Once an undead is killed, it returns to being plain dead, and would be a valid target.
That's my opinion as well. A 'dead' ghoul is no longer undead, it's back to just being a corpse. :)
Set, that's a good point about ghouls. How about template undead, where there is a clear connection between the being and their current identity or behaviour? Clearly a lich is evil even before they become undead, but vampires have no such assurance.
Trickier, and up to the GM, I suppose.
Does a vampire literally turn CE the *second* it wakes up? If so, then whatever the 'evil' is, it seems to be externally imposed, and would likely 'go away' just as quickly when the vampire became a person again (assuming they weren't already CE when they were alive).
Does the vampire instead spiral into CE over days or months or whatever, a combination of blood hunger forcing them to do unspeakable things and a cruel vampire master *also* forcing them to do unspeakable things, until their ethics and morals shatter under the weight of those things? If the alignment change is more gradual, like this, then it probably wouldn't magically go away if the vampire became a living person again, but have to be undone as gradually and methodically as it was 'done.'
(And probably take longer, and perhaps even be impossible to fully reverse, depending on how much they were traumatized by the process. Someone who was lawful and good might never recover, since they had 'farther to fall' and 'took more falling damage' in the process of shattering and becoming CE. Someone who was CN or NE might recover psychologically relatively quickly, by comparison.)
Even if the Evil is imposed by the change (which, given the undead are always evil official stance seems likely), is the being responsible for their actions while undead (such as multiple murders for blood)? The immediate change would likely be external, and seems like it could be reversed by removal of the undead status, but is undead status enough of a form of duress to consider a being not responsible for their actions?
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Even if the Evil is imposed by the change (which, given the undead are always evil official stance seems likely), is the being responsible for their actions while undead (such as multiple murders for blood)? The immediate change would likely be external, and seems like it could be reversed by removal of the undead status, but is undead status enough of a form of duress to consider a being not responsible for their actions?
I was perhaps too wordy in the above.
If the alignment change is external and immediate upon becoming a vampire, it should logically go away just as immediately upon being restored to life.
If the alignment change is something that happens as a result of the chaotic and evil stuff you have to do when you are a vampire, then there's likely going to be longer-term repercussions. And bigger therapy bills.
Even if the Evil is imposed by the change (which, given the undead are always evil official stance seems likely), is the being responsible for their actions while undead (such as multiple murders for blood)? The immediate change would likely be external, and seems like it could be reversed by removal of the undead status, but is undead status enough of a form of duress to consider a being not responsible for their actions?I was perhaps too wordy in the above.
If the alignment change is external and immediate upon becoming a vampire, it should logically go away just as immediately upon being restored to life.
If the alignment change is something that happens as a result of the chaotic and evil stuff you have to do when you are a vampire, then there's likely going to be longer-term repercussions. And bigger therapy bills.
Is it really an either/or situation?
Becoming undead forces an alignment change to Evil, but without some other entity exercising control, does it force evil actions? It's a return to the lasting debate: does one's actions determine their alignment or does one's alignment determine their actions?
If alignment is the puppeteer that controls actions, then the alignment change should be reversed upon return to life (although that would lead one to wonder how anyone can ever change alignment naturally, given they could not act against their alignment).
If alignment is the result of actions, then giving into hunger for life is a choice, and the being's alignment should reflect their willingness to make that choice every bit as much as a person who actively kills another to cannibalize them for survival.
If an undead is returned to life, presumably they are able to resume their previous alignment. In character, they may have memories, flashbacks, or nightmares of things they did (depending on the lucidity and type of creature they were). How they deal with that will be up to that person and their personality.
Gilfalas, My understanding was that Raise Dead couldn't return someone who is currently undead, because it requires the body. Once an undead is killed, it returns to being plain dead, and would be a valid target.That's my opinion as well. A 'dead' ghoul is no longer undead, it's back to just being a corpse. :)Well, no. A dead undead is just a corpse of an undead. A dead outsider is still a dead outsider, it doesn't suddenly become valid for raise dead.
Undead are not a naturally occurring form of existence. I don't think there's any such thing as the corpse of an undead. Corporal undead are (so far as I'm aware) all modified forms of other creatures. If a human is killed, turned into a zombie, and the zombie is killed, the corpse is a human corpse. It ceases to be undead when the effect animating it as undead ends.
I'm with Gilfalas/Pizza Lord. once you become undead your type changes - you are no longer (for example) a humanoid. And create undead (and other undead creating effects that I am aware of) are instantaneous - there is no way to reverse or dispel it.
So a dead undead is still undead (as it were!).
In respect of the other aspect if raised the original personality reasserts itself - the time spent as undead should not in anyway affect the raised personality.