Can a psychodermist use normal implements?


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

A psychodermist has the trophies ability.

Trophies:
Trophies (Su): At 1st level, a psychodermist learns how to siphon power from pieces of creatures he has slain. The psychodermist gains Harvest Parts as a bonus feat, and he can select one monster part per implement school he knows to become a permanently preserved trophy so long as it remains in his possession. Each trophy functions as the psychodermist’s implement for its associated implement school. A trophy that fits multiple implement categories, such as a hand with clawed fingers, can function for only one implement school at a time. A trophy can be integrated into another item, such as an ornament or a magic item, but otherwise does not take up a magic item slot, even when worn. A psychodermist can replace trophies with new ones harvested from slain foes, although doing so causes the old trophies to rot at their normal rate. In order to craft a trophy, the psychodermist must have been present during the creature’s death.

This ability alters implements.

It's an archetype of the occultist, who has the implements ability.

implements:

Implements (Su): At 1st level, an occultist learns to use two implement schools. At 2nd level and every 4 occultist levels thereafter, the occultist learns to use one additional implement school, to a maximum of seven schools at 18th level. Each implement school adds one spell per spell level of that school of magic to the occultist’s spell list. No spells from any other school are considered to be on the occultist’s spell list until he selects the associated implement school. He can’t use spell trigger or spell completion magic items from unknown schools without succeeding at the appropriate Use Magic Device check. An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

Each implement school is represented by a small list of objects. Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school’s list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows. The occultist needs only one such item to cast spells of the corresponding school, unless he selected that implement school multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that school. Implements don’t need to be magic items, and nonmagical implements don’t take up a magic item slot even if they’re worn. Implements that are not magic items are often of some historical value or of personal significance to the occultist, such as the finger bone of a saint, the broken scepter of a long-dead king, the skull of a mentor’s familiar, or the glass eye of an uncanny ancestor.

Whenever an occultist casts a spell, he must have the corresponding implement in his possession and present the implement to the target or toward the area of effect. This act is part of casting the spell and doesn’t require any additional action. If the occultist lacks the corresponding implement, he can attempt to cast the spell, but must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 20 + the spell’s level) to do so. Spells cast by an occultist without the appropriate implement are always treated as if they were cast at the minimum caster level for the spell in question (caster level 1st for a 1st-level spell, caster level 4th for a 2nd-level spell, and so on).

Each implement school also grants a base focus power. This power is added to the list of focus powers possessed by the occultist (see Mental Focus below). In addition, each implement school grants access to a number of other focus powers that the occultist can select from using his mental focus class feature.

See the Implement Schools section starting on page 50 for a complete list of implements associated with each school and their focus powers.

Now, my question is if the psychodermist is obligated to always use trophies. Or can he use implements instead, if he so chooses?

I can't really find any definite text one way or the other, and I'm also unsure of what the intention might have been, so both RAW and RAI are unclear to me.

The reason to use original implements is mainly so that panoplies are an option. Because panoplies call for specific implements that trophies would not satisfy.

Silver Crusade

Nobody?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I read the sentence "Each trophy functions as the psychodermist’s implement for its associated implement school." as saying that trophies replace normal implements. A psychodermist is obligated to use trophies.

This is supported by the flavor text "Rather than tapping the psychic energy residing within esoteric items, psychodermists form supernatural bonds with trophies taken from creatures they have slain."

Silver Crusade

You're probably right.

Too bad they can't use panoplies, then.


Wait a Minute...

I feel this topic has to be rediscussed.

Quote:
A trophy can be integrated into another item, such as an ornament or a magic item, but otherwise does not take up a magic item slot, even when worn.

Why would they write this sentence, if trophies alone count as implements?

Just put some hide of the Beast you've just slain on the grip of your weapon or glue the paws of it to your shield and you're fine to use the Trapping of the Warrior Panoply to this archetype.

Key word here (at least from a mathematical point of view) is integrated, meaning the trophy becomes a part of the item, thus qualifying for both the requirement of the archetype and the panoply.

Any thoughts?


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Nah.


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I second the "nah." Just because you've attached a tooth to a sword doesn't make the tooth count as the sword. It's just attached to a sword, still a tooth. Just because you put a skull on your hat, doesn't make it your hat. I can list more and more examples of this. The implement is still the hide wrapped around a sword's hilt. It does not suddenly become the sword. Integrate just means to combine or put something together. But, the ability is just looking for the trophy, not the thing you shoved the trophy on.


Maybe the integration is referring to the fact that certain harvested trophies can be used in the creation of certain wondrous items in lieu of the required spell?

For instance, using the harvested spinnerets of a giant spider replaces the knowledge of a web spell to create a wondrous item.


TrinitysEnd wrote:
I second the "nah." Just because you've attached a tooth to a sword doesn't make the tooth count as the sword. It's just attached to a sword, still a tooth. Just because you put a skull on your hat, doesn't make it your hat. I can list more and more examples of this. The implement is still the hide wrapped around a sword's hilt. It does not suddenly become the sword. Integrate just means to combine or put something together. But, the ability is just looking for the trophy, not the thing you shoved the trophy on.

Yeah, you got a point there. I thought some more about the subject and think I got a way to make it work. It's true that it would not be enough to attach the trophy to a weapon.

For the requirement of having weapon/shield and Monster Parts work we need to make a weapon and shield completely out of monster parts.

Shield is pretty easy, there are several listed special material out of hide (Hide fulfilling the abjuration requirement).

Weapon might be a bit more difficult, so you need to find a monster that consists of a proper material (some plant creature for wood, some iron golem for metal and so on). The Harvest Parts feat states that in rare circumstances metal is a valid resource you can get out of a monster. So craft a sword from it and there you go.

I did not check the other panoply requirements, but the Trapping of the Warrior panoply would be possible.


Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:
TrinitysEnd wrote:
I second the "nah." Just because you've attached a tooth to a sword doesn't make the tooth count as the sword. It's just attached to a sword, still a tooth. Just because you put a skull on your hat, doesn't make it your hat. I can list more and more examples of this. The implement is still the hide wrapped around a sword's hilt. It does not suddenly become the sword. Integrate just means to combine or put something together. But, the ability is just looking for the trophy, not the thing you shoved the trophy on.

Yeah, you got a point there. I thought some more about the subject and think I got a way to make it work. It's true that it would not be enough to attach the trophy to a weapon.

For the requirement of having weapon/shield and Monster Parts work we need to make a weapon and shield completely out of monster parts.

Shield is pretty easy, there are several listed special material out of hide (Hide fulfilling the abjuration requirement).

Weapon might be a bit more difficult, so you need to find a monster that consists of a proper material (some plant creature for wood, some iron golem for metal and so on). The Harvest Parts feat states that in rare circumstances metal is a valid resource you can get out of a monster. So craft a sword from it and there you go.

I did not check the other panoply requirements, but the Trapping of the Warrior panoply would be possible.

You can also use Bone. Personally, I think Trappings of the Warrior was the worst thing they could add for Occultist. Full BAB 6th level caster with the only drawback that you have to wear a shield. Makes me just feel dirty thinking of it. But hey, people have their own desires.

Stupid Rant:

Also for that shield drawback, just slap on a buckler, grab Unhindering Shield and profit. Or just carry a shield on your back if you don't want to get Shield Focus and Unhindering. Nothing says it needs to be equipped, only that you can direct it at people. Such a stupid thing to add. I ban Trappings of the Warrior in my games because it just shouldn't have existed.
Poorly balanced. Sorry if the author reads this, but Occultist is my favorite class and that literally makes it one of the best Gishes. Only downside of it is Action Economy, but Variable Bane,
Full BAB, and more. But that's me. Others are free to do what they want with it.

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