Ability score increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th level

[DarkAviator]

I just found that the ability score increases at level up don't say you can raise an 18 to 19 or a 22 to 23 (scores without magic items increasing them). The faq entry also only has examples of going from 13 to 14 or 15 to 16.

Now, when I take a look at the rules for ability scores, it says:
Each ability score generally ranges from 3 to 18, although racial bonuses and penalties can alter this; an average ability score is 10.

From countless builds by other players I can see that RAI there is no limit. But RAW say "generally" and lists exceptions, without mentioning leveling up.

Is there something official about raising your main stat to 25 without magic items, just through leveling?

[FormerFiend]

You know, I've literally never seen anyone question this before. I've always seen it taken as a given that you can increase any of the scores without limitations.

[Vidmaster7]

Ever since 3rd edition through to PF we have always used those points to raise above 18-20 Looking though I can not seem to find a rule that says one way or the other. Yeah i've never had anyone questions this before either.

[quibblemuch]

There is an official rule. It's that you can add an additional ability score point at 4th, etc... arithmetic takes care of the rest. No need for casuistry to try to cast doubt on arithmetic.

Saying that RAW doesn't cover it because the specific case of "20 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 25" is not explicitly enumerated is like saying that math doesn't work "as written" because there exist numbers that no one has generated yet.

[Vidmaster7]

But quibble what about 2 divided by 0....

*accidentally destroys world*

[quibblemuch]

Dammit Vidmaster7! The world was where I kept all my stuff! Now what am I going to do for stuff?

[Vidmaster7]

Imagination?

[quibblemuch]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Imagination?

Linkified that for you...

[Vidmaster7]

quibblemuch wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Imagination?

Linkified that for you...

Thank you that was exactly what I thought of after I typed it too.

[quibblemuch]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

quibblemuch wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Imagination?

Linkified that for you...

Thank you that was exactly what I thought of after I typed it too.

*dusts off hands*

Well, I think we've successfully derailed this thread...

[wraithstrike]

DarkAviator wrote:

I just found that the ability score increases at level up don't say you can raise an 18 to 19 or a 22 to 23 (scores without magic items increasing them). The faq entry also only has examples of going from 13 to 14 or 15 to 16.

Now, when I take a look at the rules for ability scores, it says:
Each ability score generally ranges from 3 to 18, although racial bonuses and penalties can alter this; an average ability score is 10.

From countless builds by other players I can see that RAI there is no limit. But RAW say "generally" and lists exceptions, without mentioning leveling up.

Is there something official about raising your main stat to 25 without magic items, just through leveling?

There would have to be a rule that specifically limited you to 18 without the aid of magic items and there is not one. It also says "generally" meaning that is the normal case, which is not the same as "you must stay within these limits.

You also need to realize that the section you are reading is under "Generating a Character", while the rules for adding extra ability points are under "character advancement".

The game calls out hard limits. It does not hint at them. As an example it will not say that your weapon might max out at +5 weapon. It says the max actual enhancement is +5. I am not including epic weapons for that limit since that is a special case.

[Purple Overkill]

@DarkAviator:

You seem to mix-up how character creation works, therefore you´re coming to the wrong conclusion.

The first step, determining ability scores before adding race, can work with a lot of options to get there, from 3d6 to 4d6dl and PB or using an array.
In this step, no method should be able to create better or worse results than any other, setting the boundary rules to 3 and 18 (for this step).
After that basic step and beginning with adding racial modifiers, those two numbers cease to play a role in the game.

[DarkAviator]

Thanks, especially wraithstrike, for mentioning that the game calls out hard limits, and there is no such hard limit for the ability score.