...says:
When you *would die*, banish this card to *instead* shuffle 1d4+1 random cards from your discard pile into your deck.
Let's say I need to draw 6 cards to reset my hand, but I only have 3 in my deck. Do I:
- 1) draw in turn my last cards 1, 2 and 3; then I *should* draw card 4, i.e. I would die, but *instead* I heal with BoKhepri, so then I only draw cards 5 and 6 (so my "hand reset' yields 1 card less than usual)
- 2) draw together my last 3 cards; then I *should* draw the rest of the cards, i.e. I would die, but *instead* I heal with BoKhepri, so then I don't really draw any more cards ("hand reset' yields 3 card less than usual)
- 3) draw in turn my last cards 1, 2 and 3; then I *should* draw card 4, i.e. I would die, but *instead* I heal with BoKhepri, disregarding the 'die' condition; after I (would die/heal), I resume the "reset your hand" instruction, so I again try do draw card 4, 5, 6 etc. (so the "hand reset" yields the expected hand size number of cards)
Now, would your answer be different if you had to remove cards for reasons other than hand reset?
What wasn't immediately obvious to us, but seem kinda funky - if the right option is 1) or 3) - that means we can die 'twice' from the same condition (hand reset, forced deck examine, discard from top of your deck...), even if we sacrificed the BoKhepri to survive death; and the prevalent thinking in our group is that's not intended (i.e. Kherpi saves you from one condition, and one condition only, but it saves you *guaranteed*!).
If I had encountered this in one of our games, I would have ruled #2. But I'm very interested to see where this conversation goes!
I am quite sure that it is option 3. You draw x cards and would die, instead you banish this blessing card to replenish you draw deck and try to draw enough cards to fill your hand.
In any other cases there should be mention that you don't have to be able to fill you hand or that your hand size is reduced, but this is not the case in this situation.
So you can die twice... hmmm Sounds like a Bond movie...
I would say number 3, but I do also get the sentiment that it should really save you and not simply postpone dying for a couple of cards in the midst of resetting your hand. I guess the miracle of Khepri only works if you would be mostly dead vs. all dead.
If you've now banished BoKhepri from your hand, do you not also need a 7th card to get back up to your hand size? So BoKhepri only nets you 1d4 cards, and in your scenario, you still need to roll a 4 to save your character even after playing the blessing. Good luck with that :)
Gods Are unpredictable ;)
I would play it as #3 as well, including an extra draw to replace the banished blessing.
I do agree that still dying due to a poor d4 roll after banishing this blessing is really sucky though. Banish powers should be really good, not merely mediocre.
I do agree that still dying due to a poor d4 roll after banishing this blessing is really sucky though. Banish powers should be really good, not merely mediocre.
Nothing forbids to play a second Blessing of Khepri.
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I do agree that still dying due to a poor d4 roll after banishing this blessing is really sucky though. Banish powers should be really good, not merely mediocre.Nothing forbids to play a second Blessing of Khepri.
Other than having more than one at the time. (It's a promo card, after all; I doubt most groups have 5 of them. ;)
Hi Parody.
An annoying chaotic pushy French wise guy would answer: "Yes but you can have two Blessings of the gods in your hand (not THAT difficult). You then just have to make sure you die when the Blessing of Khepri could is on the top of the Blessing discard pile."
Thankfully for all of us I am not wise :-)
An annoying American wise guy might reply that the set for which Blessing of Khepri was released doesn't have Blessings of the Gods, reducing the chance that the situation described would occur from "comedically absurd" to "not in a million years, even in Guild play".
Of course, that annoying American wise guy's main goal was combining an unlikely situation with a specific foible of another forum regular, so I think he's already at the end of his rope. :)
Thank y'all, guys.
It's good we have an official ruling on this, but -without meaning to prevail upon the 'official men' (Vic, Mike, etc...) any further- could any of you rule-crunchers weigh in on WHY is the correct answer Option 3?
Option 2 rests on a "Finish One Thing..." argument, i.e:
- a power triggers you to deck discard/examine/draw
- you run out of card in your deck to use
- you *would* now die
- you Finish One Thing (resolving the trigger power, which now has no more cards to work with, so the rest of it "fizzles")
- you Start Another Thing - playing Khepri's replacement power, triggered by the "When you would die..."
Option 3... Some people say "When you would die..." triggers immediately, in effect 'interrupting' the effect that made you to deck discard/examine/draw, but resuming the said effect after playing BoKhepri... well, it really seems to boil down to "skipping the rest of the effect would be player-beneficial, therefore it's "cheesing it"". We can't however seem to find and legal grounds for this "power resume" in the Rulebook. Can anyone point to a Rules argument in support of the Option 3 timing resolution?
"Yes but you can have two Blessings of the gods in your hand (not THAT difficult). You then just have to make sure you die when the Blessing of Khepri is on the top of the Blessing discard pile."
Well, that would really probably qualify as playing 2 cards of the same type during the same step, so... :)
Drawing up to your hand size is not a power, it is just something you must do (powers are only found on cards, and this is in the rulebook).
MM rulebook p14: "Finally, if you have fewer cards than your hand size, you must draw cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size."
Per the rulebook quote, you are instructed to draw cards one at a time until it reaches your hand size (the wording would start with "draw a number of cards" if you were supposed to draw all of those cards in bulk). The blessing stops the single draw that kills you, but you're still resetting your hand in the end of turn phase after the blessing resolves, and you do not finish that phase until you get a full hand back out of your deck.
Per the rulebook quote, you are instructed to draw cards one at a time until it reaches your hand size (the wording would start with "draw a number of cards" if you were supposed to draw all of those cards in bulk). The blessing stops the single draw that kills you, but you're still resetting your hand in the end of turn phase after the blessing resolves, and you do not finish that phase until you get a full hand back out of your deck.
I see your point, and I rather agree about the Hand Reset situation.
However, as I asked above - do you think it would resolve differently, if the deck manipulation was caused by a power?
For example:
"Before you act, examine the top 3 cards of your deck; bury 1, discard 1 and recharge 1"
(as an aside, how do you think the above power would interact with an 'interrupting' Khepri, considering the rule "If anything would cause you to shuffle the deck while you are examining cards, shuffle the deck only after you put the cards back." ?)
or
"When you're dealt damage by the Bad Mofo, discard the cards from the top of your deck." ?
I think it resolves the same no matter why you are getting cards from your deck.
Rulebook p2 (golden rules): "Regardless of the above, if you need to do anything with any number of cards from the blessings deck (other than shuffling it) and you don’t have enough, you lose the scenario; if that happens with your character deck, your character dies."
This is the rule that kills you when told to examine top 3 cards of your deck and you don't have enough. The rule says "any number of cards", so despite the fact you examine the cards one at a time, you still pull the top 3 off in one go. As such, the blessing counters the death entirely. "When you would" powers happen before the action that triggers them, which in this case is the examine. So, after healing yourself you examine the top 3 cards and then bury 1, discard 1, and recharge 1. If you didn't heal yourself to 3 cards, you still die.
In other words, the blessing stops the death. It does not short-circuit the thing that caused the death.
Chief Technical Officer
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"When you would" powers happen before the action that triggers them...
"When you would" is almost always paired with "instead," so these things happen *instead* of the action that triggers them, at the same time that that thing would happen.
In this specific case, as soon as you would have to do anything (other than shuffling) with a number of cards from your character deck and you don't have enough, you would die, which would end your turn, preventing you from finishing whatever you were doing. With this card, instead of dying, you shuffle 1d4+1 random cards from your discard pile into your deck. Since your turn isn't ending, nothing is keeping you from finishing what you were already doing, so that's what you do.
In this specific case, as soon as you would have to do anything (other than shuffling) with a number of cards from your character deck and you don't have enough, you would die, which would end your turn, preventing you from finishing whatever you were doing. With this card, instead of dying, you shuffle 1d4+1 random cards from your discard pile into your deck. Since your turn isn't ending, nothing is keeping you from finishing what you were already doing, so that's what you do.
Thanks for the detailed breakdown, Vic! It's much appreciated.
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One of the best ways to think about Blessing of Khepri is that Khepri will save you if you're worth his effort, but he's a busy god and isn't going to waste his time if you're just going to die anyway.
Also, he's a dung beetle, so what do you want, man.
"Yes but you can have two Blessings of the gods in your hand (not THAT difficult). You then just have to make sure you die when the Blessing of Khepri is on the top of the Blessing discard pile."Well, that would really probably qualify as playing 2 cards of the same type during the same step, so... :)
Hum I would say no, because Blessing of Khepri says "When..." and you can play cards/powers each time "When" happens if I followed well.
But not 100% sure
"Yes but you can have two Blessings of the gods in your hand (not THAT difficult). You then just have to make sure you die when the Blessing of Khepri is on the top of the Blessing discard pile."Well, that would really probably qualify as playing 2 cards of the same type during the same step, so... :)Hum I would say no, because Blessing of Khepri says "When..." and you can play cards/powers each time "When" happens if I followed well.
But not 100% sure
Apparently, this doesn't work for "optional" powers (see my recent Simoun thread); and "playing cards from your hand is always optional"...
You have a point.
Tricky.