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The Darklands' lowest level, Orv, is located 8,000+ feet beneath the surface. That's fine for Orvian vaults beneath dry land, but what about the massive Sightless Sea? It is described as stretching beneath the Arcadian Ocean and the lost continent of Azlant. Although it's not implicitly stated, it's a safe bet that the Sightless Sea connects all the way to Orvian vaults beneath the western continent of Arcadia. In other words, I think it's supposed to sprawl underneath the entire Arcadian Ocean.
So what's the problem? The Arcadian is roughly equivalent to the real-world Atlantic Ocean. The Atlantic is about 11,000 feet deep most of the time, with a max depth of 28,000 feet. Even if the Sightless Sea's roof started at 10,000 feet below the surface (I'm adding 2,000 to the top Orvian vault depth of 8,000 feet to err on the side of caution), that still means it would be kind of absurd that the Sightless Sea extends beyond the continental shelf.
One possible solution is that the entire Sightless Sea angles downward - or in other words, the whole vault could be a geologic subduction zone. But this doesn't work. It's specifically stated that a variety of creatures sail on top of the Sightless, so its ceiling has to be pretty flat. Compounding this is The Braid which is described as a massive column of water at the center of the Sightless, beneath Azlant, that rises miles from the Sightless's surface to the cavern ceiling above.
Even if the Arcadian was 2 miles at the deepest in most places, that would necessitate the Sightless Sea's roof to be, at the very least, about 3 miles (or 15,000 feet) beneath the ground. That would allow for 2 miles above the Sightless Sea's surface and the cavern roof, and 1 mile between that roof and the Arcadian Ocean's seafloor. And because the Sightless has a coastline with three other Orvian vaults (Ilvarandin, Denebrum, and Doga-Delloth), that means those too must be 15,000 feet deep. Because remember: the ceiling of the Sightless Sea is by necessity pretty flat, or else no one would be able to sail past the coast because large swathes of the central Sightless Sea would be entirely underwater. And it can't be. Because of the Braid.
So... thoughts?
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote: Non-euclidean geography. Honestly I was thinking that. Two other possibilities:
-The Sightless Sea looks like a doughnut, with the "hole" being the Arcadian Ocean's seafloor at its deepest points.
-The Orvian vaults to the east (Land of Black Blood, Deep Tolguth, etc.) are located at the 8,000 foot mark then gradually slope down towards the west. The slope would barely be noticeable to get the Sightless Sea to the right depth that it could realistically sit beneath the Arcadian Ocean. That still requires the ceiling of the Sightless Sea - and by extension all vaults sharing a border with it - to be about 30,000 feet (6 miles) underground. That's way below the 8,000 foot mark noted in Into the Darklands, but is otherwise fairly realistic.
This latter option also allows for the intriguing possibility of Orvian vaults sitting one atop another. There is some precedence for this: the cavern of Gongorina is 8,000 feet deep and described as one of the "highest and smallest of the vast cavern vaults," and in The Emerald Spire module, a map drawn by the vault builders themselves "...shows a schematic of the Vaults of Orv below the Inner Sea region, including several unknown to surface explorers."
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Gorbacz wrote: Non-euclidean geography. Yep. That checks out. In fact, recent research into pocket dimensional tectonics suggest that Golarion has what can be termed a "mantle of holding." This may have something to do with the imprisonment of Rovagug--which means that any effort to reconcile the distances in Orv to expected Euclidean norms could free the Rough Beast...
Scientific Scrutiny wrote:
Yep. That checks out. In fact, recent research into pocket dimensional tectonics suggest that Golarion has what can be termed a "mantle of holding." This may have something to do with the imprisonment of Rovagug--which means that any effort to reconcile the distances in Orv to expected Euclidean norms could free the Rough Beast... Here's why I don't like the non-Euclidean explanation: it has zero precedence. Pathfinder is a fantasy game with magic and such, but the developers do a good job of making sure it adheres to its own internal logic. And there's been no suggestion that space/gravity warping magic is at play in Orv. Although created and tectonically stabilized by magic, nothing indicates the vaults function like demiplanes or the like. On the other hand, it's specifically stated that Rovagug is contained in a demiplane known as the Dead Vault. Yes the Dead Vault can be physically reached and sits at the core of Golarion, but it is still absolutely a demiplane.
Until I see something published to the contrary, I have to assume that the Sightless Sea (and every vault that shares its coast) is the deepest Orvian vault that begins at about 30,000-40,000 feet below surface level, and extends down another several miles.
Glad you caught the typo. It should have been 80,000 ft beneath the surface ;-p
The Raven Black wrote: Glad you caught the typo. It should have been 80,000 ft beneath the surface ;-p That's actually not unrealistic. The earth - and therefore Golarion - has a radius of 4,000 miles, so 80,000 feet is barely scratching the surface. The problem is that Sekamina only extends between 2,000 and 8,000 feet. Therefore, if the Sightless Sea, Denebrum, etc., really are 30,000 feet down, then there is about 22,000 feet of solid stone between these vaults and the lowest caverns of Sekamina. We know that Denebrum has connections to upper caverns though, as the seugathi frequently make their way up to Varisia. Are there massive 20,000-foot-deep boreholes connecting the ceilings of Denebrum and other deep vaults to Sekamina?
There's really no solution that can satisfy all the issues.
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Well, there's one solution. But you're not going to like it.
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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Have we ruled out the possibility that despite being the equivalent to the Atlantic, that the Arcadian is more shallow than it's real world counterpart?
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FormerFiend wrote: Have we ruled out the possibility that despite being the equivalent to the Atlantic, that the Arcadian is more shallow than it's real world counterpart? It did have a nice big continent right in the center...
*wistfully stares at waves*
Several typos then : multiply every level's depths by 10
Or maybe the scales were stolen from the demonic Drows who use metric as every CE society should ;-p
FormerFiend wrote: Have we ruled out the possibility that despite being the equivalent to the Atlantic, that the Arcadian is more shallow than it's real world counterpart? Yes. The OP noted that even average depth of 2 miles still gave unrealistic results
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So I went ahead and made a basic mock-up of the issue here. It's a visual problem so I figured this would help. The main point is that The Braid needs to be located beneath the sunken continent of Azlant, and its ceiling must be of a uniform height. The adjacent vault (Denebrum in this case) also needs to have roughly the same ceiling height. Also keep in mind this only shows an ocean depth of 16,000 feet, or 3 miles. The Arcadian could easily be twice that depth in some places.
Into the Darklands says the Braid is miles wide, not high:
Chapter Four: Orv wrote: At the center of the Sightless Sea, under what was once the mighty empire of Azlant, rises the subterranean ocean’s most impressive sight—the Braid. A sort of reverse waterspout, this miles-wide column of twisting water rises up from the sea, spiraling up to the cavern roof a mile above to pool in a much smaller mass of water that clings to the ceiling above. So it's a fat cylinder, a mile high and miles in diameter.
No exact depth is given for Orv, just that it's "below 8,000 feet". I am inclined to go with your second theory, because we know that vaults can be thousands of feet (i.e., miles) high.
Generic Villain wrote: -The Orvian vaults to the east (Land of Black Blood, Deep Tolguth, etc.) are located at the 8,000 foot mark then gradually slope down towards the west. The slope would barely be noticeable to get the Sightless Sea to the right depth that it could realistically sit beneath the Arcadian Ocean. That still requires the ceiling of the Sightless Sea - and by extension all vaults sharing a border with it - to be about 30,000 feet (6 miles) underground. That's way below the 8,000 foot mark noted in Into the Darklands, but is otherwise fairly realistic. There's no reason why the Sightless Sea can't be much farther down than the other vaults. In fact, most of the vault containing the Sightless Sea is likely filled with water, so the top of that vault can easily be offset vertically, downwards, from its neighbors.
John Mechalas wrote:
There's no reason why the Sightless Sea can't be much farther down than the other vaults. In fact, most of the vault containing the Sightless Sea is likely filled with water, so the top of that vault can easily be offset vertically, downwards, from its neighbors.
The Sightless Sea has to be level with adjacent vaults, and it can't be filled with water. The majority of it has to be a water-filled cavern that other creatures can sail upon, and that The Braid can emerge from. Because remember: The Braid is located beneath Azlant, at what is likely the lowest point of the Arcadian Ocean.
Because I have free time, another mock-up. There's no way around it: Denebrum, Doga-Delloth, and any other vault that shares a beach with the Sightless Sea must be at the same depth. If those vaults didn't share a coastline with the Sightless Sea, it would be easy to handwave it and just say that the SS is the deepest vault, whereas all the others are located much closer to the surface. So whatever the lowest point of the Arcadian Ocean is (in this case I just guessed 20,000 feet), all those vaults must be lower still.
(Also yes, there's an elder kraken chilling beneath the Braid. Her name is Thrikritar)
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There's one dumb possibility: the beach that Denebrum shares with the Sightless Sea is somehow way, way deeper than the rest of the vault itself. In other words, Denebrum could be split by a precipitous drop where it meets the Sightless Sea. And since I have literally nothing else to do, here's what it would look like.
Although! If Denebrum sloped downwards to the west at a decent click, it's possible its eastern edge could be around 8,000 feet below-ground, while its western end (the coastline) is at the 20,000-30,000 foot mark. No precipitous drop needed.
*EDIT: Okay, last mock-up. Here's the most plausible possibility I can think of. Didn't feel the need to include the Braid in this one.
Generic Villain wrote: Okay, last mock-up. Here's the most plausible possibility I can think of. Didn't feel the need to include the Braid in this one. This is close to what I was thinking, but remember there's no reason to force the roof of Denebrum's vault to be at a depth of 8000'. It can be lower than the other vaults, and also slope to the Sightless Sea. The vaults live below 8000' but they don't necessarily all cap out there.
Note that the Sightless Sea's vault is probably mostly filled with water. There just needs ~1 mile of air above the water's surface to satisfy the description of The Braid. The sea itself (and the vault that contains it) is actually much deeper in places:
Chapter Four: Orv wrote: The sea’s deep drops to an average depth of a mile throughout most of its length, but in places is far deeper.
John Mechalas wrote:
This is close to what I was thinking, but remember there's no reason to force the roof of Denebrum's vault to be at a depth of 8000'. It can be lower than the other vaults, and also slope to the Sightless Sea. The vaults live below 8000' but they don't necessarily all cap out there.
The problem with making Denebrum (or any other vault beneath dry land) much deeper than 8,000 feet is that there would essentially be a "dead zone" between the highest vault and Sekamina. A 1,000-foot dead zone? Sure, that's not hard to imagine. But 5,000 feet of solid stone? That seems unlikely, only because it begs the question: why wouldn't Sekamina occupy everything between Nar-Voth and Orv? In other words, if Nar-Voth ends at 2,000 feet and Denebrum doesn't begin until, say, 15,000 feet, why wouldn't Sekamina occupy the entire stretch between those two layers? I guess it's possible that Sekamina just can't go that low b/c of the heat/pressure at those depths, as it lacks Orv's magical shielding.
That's a small quibble though. Ultimately I'm satisfied with the sloping Orvian vaults idea, because nothing else really works.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Generic Villain wrote: John Mechalas wrote:
This is close to what I was thinking, but remember there's no reason to force the roof of Denebrum's vault to be at a depth of 8000'. It can be lower than the other vaults, and also slope to the Sightless Sea. The vaults live below 8000' but they don't necessarily all cap out there.
The problem with making Denebrum (or any other vault beneath dry land) much deeper than 8,000 feet is that there would essentially be a "dead zone" between the highest vault and Sekamina. A 1,000-foot dead zone? Sure, that's not hard to imagine. But 5,000 feet of solid stone? That seems unlikely, only because it begs the question: why wouldn't Sekamina occupy everything between Nar-Voth and Orv? In other words, if Nar-Voth ends at 2,000 feet and Denebrum doesn't begin until, say, 15,000 feet, why wouldn't Sekamina occupy the entire stretch between those two layers? I guess it's possible that Sekamina just can't go that low b/c of the heat/pressure at those depths, as it lacks Orv's magical shielding.
That's a small quibble though. Ultimately I'm satisfied with the sloping Orvian vaults idea, because nothing else really works. it might also be that there's just no - or very few - caverns between 8000 and 15000 feet.
so yeah, sekamina above, then 7000 feet of stone (with a few, very few, connections between) and then you are into Orv.
Yakman wrote:
it might also be that there's just no - or very few - caverns between 8000 and 15000 feet.
so yeah, sekamina above, then 7000 feet of stone (with a few, very few, connections between) and then you are into Orv.
Yeah I considered that. I'm assuming that most Orvian vaults exist around the 8,000 foot mark, especially when you have things like the straight shot from the Court of Ether in Nar-Voth, to the Endless Gulf in Sekamina, to the Midnight Mountains in Orv. But there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them going way deeper.
Actually there are probably realms beneath Orv - I remember asking James Jacobs about that. His response was that yeah, there are places even lower, but the heat/pressure makes them inhospitable to all but the crazy resilient. Lots of magma and such, so not a friendly place unless you're an elemental or the like.
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Orvian vaults BEGIN at the 8,000 foot mark, but they can go far deeper. The magic of the Vault Builders/Keepers helps fight the pressure and heat, but also helps keep them stable and the like. They can go as deep as you/we want, and below that are deeper realms where the heat and pressure work normally.
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