Skald / Spell Sage - Casting as if you know it.


Rules Questions


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The "Spell Kenning" and "Spell Study" abilities for this class and archetype allow both classes to cast spells from outside their original spell list.

The entry specifically states it as:

- Once per day, a skald can cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his skald spells known, expending a skald spell slot of the same spell level to cast the desired spell.

- Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared.

If this ability would just mean that they can cast the spell and done. Then the "as if it were a spell known" seems redundant.

Does this mean that they can utilize Spell Kenning / Spell Study for the creation of Wands and Scrolls fulfilling the requirement of knowing the spell by expending their use of Spell Kenning / Spell Study in the creation process?

Knowing they will still need UMD to activate these items afterwards?


Danjal wrote:

The "Spell Kenning" and "Spell Study" abilities for this class and archetype allow both classes to cast spells from outside their original spell list.

The entry specifically states it as:

- Once per day, a skald can cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his skald spells known, expending a skald spell slot of the same spell level to cast the desired spell.

- Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared.

If this ability would just mean that they can cast the spell and done. Then the "as if it were a spell known" seems redundant.

Does this mean that they can utilize Spell Kenning / Spell Study for the creation of Wands and Scrolls fulfilling the requirement of knowing the spell by expending their use of Spell Kenning / Spell Study in the creation process?

Knowing they will still need UMD to activate these items afterwards?

No, it was FAQ that if the spell did not add to your known you couldn't cast it. So the wording ensures you can.


Starbuck_II wrote:
No, it was FAQ that if the spell did not add to your known you couldn't cast it. So the wording ensures you can.

I'm not sure I follow. The ability specifically states that it enables you to cast.

It would be rather odd if there was an ability that enables you to cast - but only if you already know the spell... Otherwise you're out of luck.

Any 'clarification' would be redundant in that regard as the whole point of the ability is enabling you to cast spells from those lists when activated.

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Plus that doesn't clarify that you can't apply it the other way around.

I'd love to see an official ruling on this instead of "I think that" scenarios.

Magic items (wands/scrolls etc) enable you to cast a spell. *period* No further clarification or justification needed.

The fact that both Spell Kenning and Spell Study mention "as if known" seems to imply something more. Or is a very strange and redundant addition.


Danjal wrote:

The "Spell Kenning" and "Spell Study" abilities for this class and archetype allow both classes to cast spells from outside their original spell list.

The entry specifically states it as:

- Once per day, a skald can cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his skald spells known, expending a skald spell slot of the same spell level to cast the desired spell.

- Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared.

If this ability would just mean that they can cast the spell and done. Then the "as if it were a spell known" seems redundant.

Does this mean that they can utilize Spell Kenning / Spell Study for the creation of Wands and Scrolls fulfilling the requirement of knowing the spell by expending their use of Spell Kenning / Spell Study in the creation process?

Knowing they will still need UMD to activate these items afterwards?

You can use Spell Kenning ans Spell Study to satisfy the requirements to craft potions, scrolls and wands, but you still need to use UMD to use the latter two (unless you're multiclassed)


Thanks for the response Entryhazard. Would you happen to have an official source for that or is that your interpretation?

The interpretations seem somewhat mixed and contradictory at the moment.


Magic Item Creation wrote:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

This line is specifically from the section of Creating Wondrous Items, but similar lines exist in a lot of the others.

A strict reading says that you must have prepared the spells or must know the spells. But, there was a FAQ that had something to say on the topic.

Crafting and Spell Requirements: When crafting an item, can an arcane caster use a divine scroll to fulfill an item's divine spell requirement?

Yes. (Likewise, a divine caster could use an arcane scroll to fulfill an item's arcane spell requirement.)
However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).

Here, it says that it's possible to fulfill the spell requirement by using scrolls, at least in one circumstance. It isn't impossible to believe that it was intended to function for similar effects as well.

With both of these in consideration, I would in fact believe that as long as you are capable of casting the spell (and expend the necessary resources to do so each day you are crafting), you can fake having a particular spell for making an item.


And therein lies the problem.

A large group of people seem convinced that the former would exclude the latter. If you don't know the spell, then you can't use a scroll or alternate source of casting it for the creation of Spell-trigger and Spell-completion items. Only for Wondrous and Arms or Armour.

However that CRB FAQ seems to imply that meeting the requirements on Spell-trigger and Spell-completion items merely excludes the possibility of substitution with a +5DC. And does not exclude using alternate sources to meet the requirement.

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