Scrolls, MetaMagic Rods and the Universalist.

[Mr.VonSex]

can i make a scroll using the Universalist spec ability to lower the metamagic lvl increase?

can i make a scroll using a metamagic rod to have no increase in the metamagic lvl ?

can i use both?

nowere in the rules say i cant.did i miss it?

can you point it out?

[Mr.VonSex]

Mr.VonSex wrote:

can i make a scroll using the Universalist spec ability to lower the metamagic lvl increase?

can i make a scroll using a metamagic rod to have no increase in the metamagic lvl ?

can i use both?

nowere in the rules say i cant.did i miss it?

can you point it out?

anyone?

[Carpjay]

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/scrolls.html

The link above includes in the last paragraph of the "Determine the Effect" subheading a statement that the effect of reading a scroll successfully is the same as "a spell prepared and cast the normal way."

Note the inclusion above of "prepared" in addition to "cast." Items (the rods) or feats (the "sudden" metamagic feats) do not involve preparation, and are a significant short cut. I feel that it would be unbalanced to allow PC X to purchase/create and have a sudden-empowered, rod-maximized fireball for the exact same cost as PC Y's scroll with regular fireball. As a DM, I would rule that any metamagic-feat effect that could not be applied in preparation of a spell also could not help reduce the level-bump for that feat in creation of a scroll.

So using sudden maximize to cast the spell into the scroll would work just fine, but the "sudden" would not apply, and the scroll would be the same as though you had created it with normal maximize.

As for the Universalist ability, I see that as being able to use any metamagic feat you know as the "sudden" version of that spell...againg, specifically for purposes of item creation, I would not allow it ignore modified spell level in the creation of a scroll, because it is not something you apply during spell preparation.

[Quandary]

I agree with Carpjay.

The only thing I can think that WASN'T in the original question was the Arcane Bloodline Sorceror's Bloodline Arcana (phew!):
If you are casting from a scroll that already contains metamagic (say, maximized fireball), it seems plausible that this bloodline arcana would come into play, increasing the DC by 1 (and presumably the effective spell level, though the BL Arcana doesn't mention this even though Heighten Spell does - relevant for globe of invulnerability, etc).

[Mr.VonSex]

Carpjay wrote:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/scrolls.html

The link above includes in the last paragraph of the "Determine the Effect" subheading a statement that the effect of reading a scroll successfully is the same as "a spell prepared and cast the normal way."

Note the inclusion above of "prepared" in addition to "cast." Items (the rods) or feats (the "sudden" metamagic feats) do not involve preparation, and are a significant short cut. I feel that it would be unbalanced to allow PC X to purchase/create and have a sudden-empowered, rod-maximized fireball for the exact same cost as PC Y's scroll with regular fireball. As a DM, I would rule that any metamagic-feat effect that could not be applied in preparation of a spell also could not help reduce the level-bump for that feat in creation of a scroll.

So using sudden maximize to cast the spell into the scroll would work just fine, but the "sudden" would not apply, and the scroll would be the same as though you had created it with normal maximize.

As for the Universalist ability, I see that as being able to use any metamagic feat you know as the "sudden" version of that spell...againg, specifically for purposes of item creation, I would not allow it ignore modified spell level in the creation of a scroll, because it is not something you apply during spell preparation.

right from the book....

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed
(or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)
and must provide any material component or focus the
spell requires. A material component is consumed when
she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in
scribing a scroll can be reused.)
!!!!The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells!!!!

this means that the wizard does cast the spell so why would he not be able to add his Universalist ability?

I "think" im with you on the rod thing but not on the Uni and look i really do appreciate yours and everyones knowledge because i DO need it but im not looking for what you would not allow.I need facts.

[Carpjay]

Mr.VonSex wrote:

I need facts.

I'm hoping someone with a clearer understanding tham I have can help you. I think the problem is that there are no "facts" that stand out, so the next best thing is other DM or player interpretations, which is all I could provide.

As for the point that "the wizard does cast the spell so why would he not be able to add his Universalist ability?", the same is also true for the "sudden" feats. I think the fact here is that you can, as the rules are written, lower spell levels with the ability as well as the sudden feat...I assumed from the original post that you were suspicious of that, looking for some other opinions. I think the inclusion of the word "prepared and cast" not just "cast" is significant in the description, but that's just an opinion I can't really back up.

As I said before, hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I chimes in with a clear-cut answer.

[Quandary]

VonSex,

IMHO, The Universalist Wizard COULD use their "free metamagic" ability, meaning they don't need to use their high-level slots to prepare the spell to make the scroll with, but the actual scroll would be COSTED based on the metamagic spell level adjustement - just because the universalist themselves gets X metamagic "for free" each day doesn't make the resultant scroll take up less "arcane space" than a "normal" metamagicked spell would.

I actually am going back and slightly modifying my previous post's opinion re: Arcane Sorceror creating a scroll of a metamagicked spell with their Arcana Ability. It should not effect the DC for ANYBODY using that scroll, but Arcane Sorcerors USING any metamagicked scroll (created by themself or not) should probably apply the +1 higher DC if they are using a metamagicked spell.

I feel pretty solid on the the Universalists' ability in this context, but it would be nice to get feedback on Arcane Sorceror's Arcana Ability in this context.

[Mr.VonSex]

Quandary wrote:

VonSex,

IMHO, The Universalist Wizard COULD use their "free metamagic" ability, meaning they don't need to use their high-level slots to prepare the spell to make the scroll with, but the actual scroll would be COSTED based on the metamagic spell level adjustement - just because the universalist themselves gets X metamagic "for free" each day doesn't make the resultant scroll take up less "arcane space" than a "normal" metamagicked spell would.

y doesnt it? y should a 5th lvl empowered fireball scroll cost the same as a 3rd lvl empowered fireball?