|
I haven't even done a cursory google search into this as a forewarning.
Why is there no Pathfinder Ice Wind Dale or Bauldurs gate style game out there? you literally(figuratively) have all the resources at your disposal, the best story lines, vibrant landscapes and worlds to explore, and easy to make linear progression campaigns.
We live in an age where you don't need production of physical copies of games to make an amazing gaming experience (see steam and battle.net) and Ill bet you a Thessalonian farthing that you could hold it to that limited graphics style and come out ahead.
Who is in charge and who do I have to speak with to get the ball rolling on this?
thank you for letting me vent about the lack of awesome games from good game systems. If any indy developers want to step up you have my support... emotionally...
The OGL allows other tabletop games to use the 3.x chassis but contains no allowance for video games to use the rule system. Anyone attempting to market a video game using 3.x rules would be living in anticipation of a phone call from Hasbro's lawyers.
|
The OGL allows other tabletop games to use the 3.x chassis but contains no allowance for video games to use the rule system. Anyone attempting to market a video game using 3.x rules would be living in anticipation of a phone call from Hasbro's lawyers.
To be honest, that isn't exactly true. You can make a game using OGL...
...but it's nigh on impossible to make a modern video game this way since, going by the letter of the OGL, you cannot use any other licenses in the product you use OGL in. Which means thins like GFX engine, sound banks, phsyics engine and other licensed content is a no-go.
|
What Joana said.
Also, there is a Pathfinder MMO that deviates from the OGL. I'm not sure what happened with that game, I haven't heard anything about it for some time now.
I suppose the Adventure Card Game could be turned into something that looks a lot like Fire Emblem. With some added cut scenes it could be a closer adaptation of the Adventure Paths.
Last I heard was that there was work being done on an adaptation of the Adventure Card Game, but I have no idea how far that project has progressed.
|
|
What Joana said.
Also, there is a Pathfinder MMO that deviates from the OGL. I'm not sure what happened with that game, I haven't heard anything about it for some time now.
I suppose the Adventure Card Game could be turned into something that looks a lot like Fire Emblem. With some added cut scenes it could be a closer adaptation of the Adventure Paths.
Last I heard was that there was work being done on an adaptation of the Adventure Card Game, but I have no idea how far that project has progressed.
I heard the MMO was dead, this seems like a happy middle ground.
I am clueless XD
Pathfinder Adventures is the game based off of the Adventure Card Game. As far as I know (not having played it) it's at least playable.
|
|
Pathfinder Adventures is the game based off of the Adventure Card Game. As far as I know (not having played it) it's at least playable.
I have played it. Micro purchases murder my game experience with games like that.
im searching for something without the nickels and dimes.
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...going by the letter of the OGL, you cannot use any other licenses in the product you use OGL in. Which means thins like GFX engine, sound banks, phsyics engine and other licensed content is a no-go.
I don't see it quite that way. The relevant sentence in the OGL says "No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License." (Emphasis mine.) The way I see it—and note that I am not a lawyer—there's a legal needle-eye that can be threaded there if you can ensure that the other licenses can't be seen as applying their terms and conditions to the OGC portion of your game. But that's not something I'd bet my business on!
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, Pathfinder Online is still a thing.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
...going by the letter of the OGL, you cannot use any other licenses in the product you use OGL in. Which means thins like GFX engine, sound banks, phsyics engine and other licensed content is a no-go.I don't see it quite that way. The relevant sentence in the OGL says "No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License." (Emphasis mine.) The way I see it—and note that I am not a lawyer—there's a legal needle-eye that can be threaded there if you can ensure that the other licenses can't be seen as applying their terms and conditions to the OGC portion of your game. But that's not something I'd bet my business on!
Reminds me of every time people ask me why lawyers always say "no", "never", "unlikely", "depends", "don't do it", "plz stahp hurting urself", "your grandkids will be paying for this" instead of "YES!", "SURE!" "CERTAINLY!", "THAT'S A GREAT IDEA" or "IMMA SURE THE JUDGE THINKS THE SAME!!!".
We're such joykillers.
I'm a bit clueless on this as well and it has been quite some time since I've read anything on this. Yet one still years for games like that. Is there anything stopping Paizo from partnering with an established game company to combine at least story lines and Golarion to another games mechanics? Say Golarion Adventure Path on Monster Hunter mechanics?
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo did have a team-up announcement with Obsidian a few years ago, so they may be working on something behind the curtains that isn't ready for announcement yet.
All I can say on our current status is that there are several balls in the air.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is there anything stopping Paizo from partnering with an established game company to combine at least story lines and Golarion to another games mechanics? Say Golarion Adventure Path on Monster Hunter mechanics?
This is an excellent question. The OGL argument (while actually very interesting to me) is actually kind of a red herring.
(Again, I need to note that I'm not a lawyer, the following is not legal advice, yadda yadda.)
It's important to understand that copyright does not protect “ideas, methods, or systems.” Rather, it protects specific “tangible expressions” of ideas, methods, or systems. It also doesn’t protect *short* expressions, such as names or "brief combinations of words." (Ideas can be protected by patents, and names and brief combinations of words can be protected by trademarks, but the only patent or trademark Wizards holds that I'm aware of that's germane to this conversation is a trademark for “Dungeon Master,” but even that's a moot point since Pathfinder has "Game Masters.”)
So Wizards can’t own the idea that a Fireball is spell that a wizard casts to make a ball of flame that burns everything in a 20-foot radius, but they can and do own their specific expression of that idea: "A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area."
Now, that doesn't mean you can just take the D&D Player’s Handbook, rewrite every sentence, and call it your own; even if you add a few things, remove a few things, and move a few things around, something like that would be considered a “derivative work,” and copyright holders have the exclusive right to create derivative works. But you *could* create a new game that incorporates many of the same game mechanics, and even uses many of the same terms, without violating Wizards’ copyrights. And before the OGL, most of the RPG industry apart from TSR (and later, Wizards) were busily creating new but incompatible D&D-like games on a regular basis.
Then Wizards realized that letting people use their specific expressions would encourage those companies to instead focus their efforts in a way that would actually increase the market share of D&D. That was smart. Perhaps even smarter, though, they crafted the OGL in a way that imposes certain limitations that copyright and trademark law *doesn’t* impose. The OGL isn’t a gift—it’s a trade.
Publishers who use the OGL gain the ability to use Wizards’ own expressions of all game mechanics that Wizards has declared as Open Game Content, but they have to give up the ability to use anything that Wizards has declared as Product Identity, even if that use would be legal under copyright or trademark law. One such example is the ability to say that your product is “compatible with Dungeons & Dragons,” or “better selling than D&D,” or “preferred by customers over D&D,” all of which are things that would be legal to say under the “nominative fair use” doctrine of trademark law. OGL publishers also give up the ability to use any D&D game mechanics that Wizards *didn’t* release under the OGL (which is a *lot* of them).
But the thing is, a Pathfinder CRPG doesn’t *need* to use Wizards’ expressions to describe how a fireball works. You don’t have to tell them it’s an “explosion of flame that...burns everything in a 20-foot radius,” because you can *show* them an explosion of flame that burns everything in a 20-foot radius. Not only are Wizards’ “tangible expressions” not only actually necessary, they are often counterproductive, as nobody wants a CRPG that’s loaded with rules text and tables.
And then there's the fact that there's a huge pile of existing mechanics that you would be silly to use in a CRPG. CRPGs don't need to be real time, but nobody is going to want to play a game where a single round of combat might take an hour. So let's say you solve that problem so that combat happens at least close to real time. Now, if you were to implement the experience and leveling rules as they stand, all of your characters would be 20th level after a few multi-hour play sessions, and then there's nowhere to go. A lot of fundamentals need to be replaced anyway.
I believe that a good Pathfinder computer game would demonstrate that the mechanics are just a framework for the story—the focus should not be on the words that TSR or Wizards or even Paizo wrote to describe the rules of fantasy roleplaying, but on our ideas, on our stories and on our setting; not on whether there's a spell called Magic Missile that deals 1d4+1 points of force damage, but on things like the crazy football-headed goblins who love fire and fear horses.
|
|
This^
I love this answer, I feel like all of the pieces to the puzzle are there. someone with initiative just needs to hunker down and make it happen.
we talk about the transfer of turn based to real time like we haven't already figured out that issue, hell you could even build in combat turn based gameplay with pop up options for AOO responses. MTG online does that.
I really just need/want to be able to play all of the adventure paths as a mod of IWD2.
I guess diablo3 will have to sate my needs for now.
|
I really wish that more games didn't treat real time vs pause like a binary proposition. Some of the most fun I ever had with a game's treatment of time was in Freedom Force, where you could incrementally slow down the game from real time down to 1/64 time and finally full pause. Watching attacks execute in slow motion and adjust strategy at exactly the right moments was all kinds of awesome.
...I feel like all of the pieces to the puzzle are there. someone with initiative just needs to hunker down and make it happen.
A few million dollars to invest would help, too. Making games is not cheap, unless you're making them in the basement on the weekends by yourself, which is probably not the kind of game you want.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Neverwinter Nights-style computer game for the Pathfinder system and setting is EXACTLY what I want. I'd particularly like it if the party design was in the vein of Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir so you could have both your own core party of multiple custom characters AND the character/plot appeal of a few NPC companions.
Making games is not cheap, unless you're making them in the basement on the weekends by yourself, which is probably not the kind of game you want.
That is, however, exactly how Jon Van Caneghem first started making the Might & Magic games, which are practically my religion. Even the first one is entirely playable (albeit just barely, because of an archaic interface).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Making games is not cheap, unless you're making them in the basement on the weekends by yourself, which is probably not the kind of game you want.That is, however, exactly how Jon Van Caneghem first started making the Might & Magic games, which are practically my religion. Even the first one is entirely playable (albeit just barely, because of an archaic interface).
The game market today has much different expectations than when The Bard's Tale, Might and Magic, and Wizardry, their sequels, or even the TSR licensed Electronics Arts AD&D games were released. To make a game marketable to a wide audience today, there needs to be a large investment made in graphics design, as well as just the game-play mechanics and the interface.
Professional graphics design (and incorporating those graphics into the game engine without adversely impacting the interface execution) is not a task for "in the basement on the weekends by yourself." At least if you want to release a complete game in less than a decade or so.
CRPGs don't need to be real time, but nobody is going to want to play a game where a single round of combat might take an hour.
Uhm actually, i know quite a lot of people who do exactly that and love it and i might be one of them.
From Twilight Imperium to any Paradox title played multiplayer...I would also muse that newer CRPGs by Wizards haven´t been that successful like old titles were (Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, ToEE) because they did not use the mechanics, but far away deviations.
There are plenty of such games.
A game under a certain trademark should use certain mechanics clearly recognizable as well as main points of the stories and worlds.
That´s the deal of it in my opinion.
A person with initiative, hunkering down in their basement on weekends, might be able to make a decent retro game, like the old style Ultimas or something. The licensing fees would still probably be too much though.
-Skeld
RPG Maker is a thing. The feel (especially combat) isn't the same as Pathfinder, though.
There are ways to add attributes and mechanics, but it would take a lot of effort to emulate a lot of the Pathfinder rule set.
|
|
As for the slowness of turn-based, there was definitely a market for the Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG, which was turn-based and heavily mechanical, perhaps the best representation of the 3.x ruleset in computer games.
Unfortunately the game was rushed out and the bugs killed a lot of the sales, so we'll never really know what the sales would have been for a polished ToEE.
|
|
I would also muse that newer CRPGs by Wizards haven´t been that successful like old titles were (Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, ToEE) because they did not use the mechanics, but far away deviations.
There are plenty of such games.
Maybe, maybe not. To me, the success of BG and IWD lay mostly in the gameplay and the story (and yeah, even IWD had a better story than a lot of other RPGs out there), while with NWN it was mainly the modder scene that saved a (story-wise) fairly average game. Don't know if it was ever about the rules implementation (at least to me, it never was). I love those old games but I've never heard anyone say that they were great because they used the D&D rules.
In the meantime, Bioware has proven that you can do wildly successful RPGs without adhering to an Pen&Paper ruleset that never lend that well to a PC game implementation anyways. Again, from Dragon Age to Mass Effect, those games are superior not because of any rules set implemented but for the stories they tell and the game worlds they present. Same could be said for the Witcher series or (and here it is where it gets interesting) those retro games by Obsidian.
I would love to see a Pathfinder CRPG get the PoE or Tyranny treatment and I'm fully convinced that Obsidian would be able to present us a great computer game without using the Pathfinder rules. In fact, for such a game it might be much more valuable that it is done by the Obsidian guys than that it adheres to the Pathfinder rules, because sorry, gamers generally give a crap about pen & paper games.
I feel that Knights of the Chalice warrants a mention here. A one-man indie adaptation of "Scourge of the Slave Lords" and "Against the Giants" based mostly on 3.x OGL ruleset with some houserules. It is, of course, far from an AAA title, but I had lots of fun playing it. And I think it can serve as a proof of concept that an OGL CRPG on a low budget is possible. It is a niche market of course, but e.g. for me the main attractions in a CRPG are rules automation and storyline, and production values come a distant third, while action-y combat is actually a detriment. I think that most AAA CRPGs have an entirely different (albeit much wider) target audience than PnP gamers. So I would be all over a low-budget but detailed PF adaptation.
Maybe, maybe not. To me, the success of BG and IWD lay mostly in the gameplay and the story (and yeah, even IWD had a better story than a lot of other RPGs out there), while with NWN it was mainly the modder scene that saved a (story-wise) fairly average game. Don't know if it was ever about the rules implementation (at least to me, it never was). I love those old games but I've never heard anyone say that they were great because they used the D&D rules.In the meantime, Bioware has proven that you can do wildly successful RPGs without adhering to an Pen&Paper ruleset that never lend that well to a PC game implementation anyways. Again, from Dragon Age to Mass Effect, those games are superior not because of any rules set implemented but for the stories they tell and the game worlds they present. Same could be said for the Witcher series or (and here it is where it gets interesting) those retro games by Obsidian.
I would love to see a Pathfinder CRPG get the PoE or Tyranny treatment and I'm fully convinced that Obsidian would be able to present us a great computer game without using the Pathfinder rules. In fact, for such a game it might be much more valuable that it is done by the Obsidian guys than that it adheres to the Pathfinder rules, because sorry, gamers generally give a crap about pen & paper games.
I won´t disagree here, but to me, if there is a Pathfinder CRPG, i want to recognize the game and not have a wildly different rulesset, because else it´s not really Pathfinder, but a game made by Paizo ( which might still be good). I want to be able to play an unchained monk with the ascetic style feat line for example.
That´s a unique feature only Paizo can provide.For "just" a good CRPG, there´s already other companies doing that.
And most people i know playing the old D&D CRPGs play them because of the brands and good stories.
|
|
The thing is, if such game comes to exist, p'n'p RPG players won't be the primary target. They are a tiny market, compared to video gamers, and mostly either are already aware of Paizo and Pathfinder or don't really care.
It's the people who enjoy games such as Pillars of Eternity or Divinity: Original Sin that matter, because they vastly outnumber p'n'p gamers.
On the other hand a good unique feature Pathfinder CRPG might bring Pathfinder eternal fame and a lot of new players.
|
|
And most people i know playing the old D&D CRPGs play them because of the brands and good stories.
I know that my experience is highly anecdotal, so I might totally be wrong here regarding the importance of the brand.
And I agree that a good Pathfinder game might make people interested enough in the RPG to give the system a try. I'ts just that I doubt that at this front, the use of the system would be more important than a compelling world with a compelling story.
I mean I even play Neverwinter Nights Online from time to time and I don't like the underlying 4E mechanics at all. Still, it's a Forgotten Realms game and that's all that matters to me. (ok and the 4E Neverwinter sourcebook was pretty good, so it made my resistance to 4E crumble ^^)
In the end, I think there's a modicum to reach so that none of us will feel left our in the cold. If you can design NWN with underlying 3E rules, you certainly can do a Pathfinder game on the base of the actual ruleset.
I won´t disagree here, but to me, if there is a Pathfinder CRPG, i want to recognize the game and not have a wildly different rulesset, because else it´s not really Pathfinder, but a game made by Paizo ( which might still be good).
That's where I'm at too. While I like Paizo's flavour and setting, my groups have meandered from Faerun to Eberron to Golarion as industry changes have taken place, all while essentially playing 3.5e. That's the game we play. Golarion is the setting. And while Paizo's setting is fun and good, it's not enough (for me) to motivate me.
A PFRPG computer game set in Golarion leverages my interest in the game I play and the setting I (currently) play it in. A different game set in Golarion is... a different game. And there are plenty of different games I could play if I wanted to spend my time playing different games.
That's where I stand on Starfinder too, sadly. I'd love to throw more money at Paizo, but so far I think this is going to be different-game-in-same-setting, which isn't enough for my groups.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The thing is, if such game comes to exist, p'n'p RPG players won't be the primary target. They are a tiny market, compared to video gamers, and mostly either are already aware of Paizo and Pathfinder or don't really care.
It's the people who enjoy games such as Pillars of Eternity or Divinity: Original Sin that matter, because they vastly outnumber p'n'p gamers.
I remember playing the first Baldur's Gate on the PC when it originally came out years ago. I had never played D&D before, hell I don't even know if I had heard of it yet, but that game was my introduction to Dungeons and Dragons. That game peaked my interest enough so that I started looking into actually playing Dungeons and Dragons, which eventually lead me to play Pathfinder (and other games).
Yes having a good well designed game IS important, but if you are going to make a Pathfinder game it should still be influenced by the actual system. Not only will that please the fans (like us) but the game basically acts like advertising to every other person who plays the game.
A well designed Pathfinder influenced game says 'Hay, if you had fun playing this, continue your adventures by buying the book!'. I am living proof that this IS a thing. I might not be playing table top if I hadn't played Baldur's gate all of those years ago.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really hope this Kingmaker Kick starter gets funded! It is about time for there to be an actual Pathfinder video game RPG
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-kingmaker
