I’m currently playing Rise of the Runelords and having a blast. We’re at the beginning of book three - combat is getting more intense and I’m starting to become concerned about our party balance. Before we began we decided that everyone should play what they wanted to play without worrying about what the group “needed” – it made for interesting characters and backstories which were a genuine surprise for the rest of the group during our first few sessions. We had little trouble in combat encounters throughout book 1, with the exception of the final fight against the Big Bad in which we needed to be rescued by an NPC. However, throughout the second book in the series it became clear – through the death of one character and the double-death of another - that our group can’t cover a few important roles. Our GM has been pretty liberal in allowing us to get Raised cheaply (the church owes us favours, etc.), but it’s cutting into our resources and I feel like we’re going to be behind in terms of wealth-by-level and therefor likely to incur more death moving forward. I like my character, so if/when my first death comes I’d like to get Raised and continue playing him but I’m also open to the idea of playing something else if it will increase the survivability of the group in the future.
Our group uses a 15-point buy and the Automatic Bonus Progression rules from Unchained. We are currently level 7. ABP makes character wealth much less of an issue than it otherwise would be, but it also means that our treasure is reduced and what little we get is going toward Raises/Restorations instead of support items, etc. It took me until level 7 to save up for mithral armour – the first expensive item I’ve bought – which my PFS characters (that need it) usually have by level 4.
Here’s what we have in the party right now:
Ratfolk alchemist – high AC when prepared for combat; mixes it up with melee (claws) and ranged (bombs); has the Infusion discovery, which is used mostly to pass out healing extracts; great knowledge skills.
Human fighter/bard – focuses on buffing with Inspire Courage, saving our butts with Saving Finale, and steps into melee with a reach weapon when the other two aren’t required; great social skills.
Kitsune rogue – two-weapon fighter (plus bite), lots of damage; has the trap-spotter talent; great physical skills.
(Me) Skinwalker Inquisitor of Ragathiel – Monster Tactician archetype; summon monsters to give the rogue some flanking (monsters I summon get Outflank, which the rogue, above, also took last level-up), self-buff, then wade into melee (Outflank + Bastard Sword + Power Attack/Furious Focus); I don’t have Augment Summoning and don’t intend to take it, so the things I summon are pretty much just HP sponges and flank buddies that have trouble hitting/damaging anything; good mix of skills.
As you can see, we are all lightly-armoured (melee-) support characters with no dedicated tank or healer. It’s not a terrible dynamic – we have great skills, support spells/abilities, etc., so role-playing and skill challenges, and minor combats go really well. However, we tend to do poorly against powerful martially-focused single opponents that can dish out a lot of DPR.
So I guess what I’m asking is this: if I die and decide to play a new character instead of Raising my old one, what will help my group the most?
My thoughts were: Life Oracle for the healing battery, but I get bored playing “one-trick pony” characters, especially when that trick is healing; Arcane Bloodrager (with a tank build) for the high hp combined with free buffs (Blur and Haste for free with every rage? Yes, please!) plus it fits my preferred character type (decent skills, able to cast spells but focus on martial), but I’m not sure it would be better overall than the versatility of Summoned Monsters; something with a full animal companion?
Note: our GM is generally okay with most expanded character options as long as they’re balanced and fit within the campaign world.
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If you like the Life Oracle idea but want to smash face as well, go Oradin. Life Oracle 3 gives you life link on all your companions, Paladin X gives you swift action LoH to cure the damage from Life Link as well as all the usual smashy goodness of Smite and either a 2 handed DPR build or a tanky Sword/board build.
There's a good guide **here** to get some ideas going.
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I would give the classic answer: a true 9-level caster. You have little in the way of arcane magic power (a fighter/bard isn't going to cut it), and a Level 7 wizard could accomplish so much for your group both in and out of combat.
I often think that although Pathfinder gives so many choices, often the tried-and-true options are the best unless players have a tremendous amount of system mastery.
Rise of the Rune lords is a Heavy Combat AP with Brutal Encounters that only get more deadly.
My suggestion is a Shaman with the Slumber Hex. Slumber will offer the Crowd Control you need for 80% of your combats. If your team starts getting over run then sleep the excess, which cuts down damage taken to the group.
You can offer the random cures when needed and the Status removal the bard can not provide.
A witch would also suffice. Herb Witch can remove status effects and brew potions so your team can really stock up on consumables between you and the Alchemist.
EDIT:
Highly suggest avoiding a "HEALER" build as your Combatants are all too lightly armored and weak HP. They will not survive long enough to heal them you will just be raising them and/or Breath of Lifing them.
You can't go wrong with a basic cleric. Healing plus heavy armor plus good battlefield performance plus status removal, all in one package. With a 15-point buy you won't have sky-high stats, and will be very MAD-limited, but you'll have a lot of functionality. One advantage is that since you won't be shooting for offensive spells, your WIS can be a very reasonable 14 or 15 at start, with no real penalty to your spellcasting.
I don´t recall how high the adventure goes, but you need arcane.
They help a lot.
You also lack on the Remove/Healing zone. Most people say you don´t need in combat healing, and I agree, but honestly some people are just bad at making strategies and take a lot of bad decisions.
If you switch classes, you´re Rogue is screwed with the feat Outflank. Also I personally hate 2WF Rogues. Half bab with penalties is a bad idea in my opinion, but to each its own.
If you can deal with it, I´d go Warpriest. Someone who can cast Cleric spells, but will flank with the rogue and be on the face of enemies, which is something you lack.
It´s either that or a Wizard/Arcanist. The utility they bring on this Path is incredible, I´m playing one.
Many of our issues come because our party has a full healer, and I mean someone who refuses to hit anyone, doesn´t summon (and doesnt´have the feats for it) and a Slayer with 2WF and a Ninja with 2WF.
I´m playing a blaster Wizard and my spells are saving the days more times then I can count. We´re level 8 and I still didn´t have the time to cast Haste, because I´m either using Fireball or Improved Invisibility on the Slayer, because he does more damage than the Ninja.
Wizard is classic. You can take archetypes for fun, I took Scrollmaster, to cast scrolls with Feats and CL at level 10, giving up 1 feat and Arcane Bond.
Arcanist is super fun, always ready, Sorcerer progression. There are several archetypes, the most powerful is usually the one to Summon as Standard Action
It all depends on what do you want to do.
A melee cleric is completely viable. Power Attack, Weapon Focus and you´re a force to be reckoned.
Fates Favored+Divine Favor gives a lot for just 1 round of buffing. Youre really close to Quicken as well.
Magical Lineage Divine Favor makes it a level 4 Spell for Quicken.
Personally I´m trying to stay away from full Caster from now on because I think they´re just to OP, but you can never go wrong with them
Thanks for the great advice, everyone!
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If you like the Life Oracle idea but want to smash face as well, go Oradin. Life Oracle 3 gives you life link on all your companions, Paladin X gives you swift action LoH to cure the damage from Life Link as well as all the usual smashy goodness of Smite and either a 2 handed DPR build or a tanky Sword/board build.
There's a good guide **here** to get some ideas going.
Oradin was my first thought but I abandoned it for a couple of reasons. First, I have a Holy Tactician Paladin PFS character who, while not an Oracle, has a similar "heal/buff/smash in equal measure" feel and I try not to play the same character twice. Second, we're using a non-standard alignment system in our game and the paladin's restrictions and abilities would be more troublesome and less useful, respectively, as a result.
Your advice gave me an idea for a War-acle (Warpriest/Oracle) that might work as an alternate, however, so thanks very much!
I would give the classic answer: a true 9-level caster. You have little in the way of arcane magic power (a fighter/bard isn't going to cut it), and a Level 7 wizard could accomplish so much for your group both in and out of combat.
I often think that although Pathfinder gives so many choices, often the tried-and-true options are the best unless players have a tremendous amount of system mastery.
Classic, indeed, and you're definitely right about our lack of arcane might. I have a couple of full arcane casters in PFS so I didn't immediately think to make another one, but if I could come up with something significantly different from those characters...
I might have to look into some of the less-common arcane specializations. I'm intrigued by the enhanced dispel line of feats from UC so maybe an abjurer would be cool, perhaps with the Thassilonian specialist wizard rules from UM. Thanks!
Rise of the Rune lords is a Heavy Combat AP with Brutal Encounters that only get more deadly.
My suggestion is a Shaman with the Slumber Hex. Slumber will offer the Crowd Control you need for 80% of your combats. If your team starts getting over run then sleep the excess, which cuts down damage taken to the group.
You can offer the random cures when needed and the Status removal the bard can not provide.
Interesting idea. I've never played a shaman (although I have played a witch, with Slumber, form levels 1-14) but I've heard they're very versatile but somewhat MAD. I'll have to look into it. Life spirit would get us some damage mitigation, too. Thanks! Any suggestions for a good wandering spirit?
Highly suggest avoiding a "HEALER" build as your Combatants are all too lightly armored and weak HP. They will not survive long enough to heal them you will just be raising them and/or Breath of Lifing them.
Great point! We're a team of squishies!
You can't go wrong with a basic cleric. Healing plus heavy armor plus good battlefield performance plus status removal, all in one package. With a 15-point buy you won't have sky-high stats, and will be very MAD-limited, but you'll have a lot of functionality. One advantage is that since you won't be shooting for offensive spells, your WIS can be a very reasonable 14 or 15 at start, with no real penalty to your spellcasting.
True dat. One of my PFS CORE characters is a battle cleric, however, so I might look into something like Warpriest instead, just to be different. Thanks for the advice!
I don´t recall how high the adventure goes, but you need arcane.
They help a lot.
You also lack on the Remove/Healing zone. Most people say you don´t need in combat healing, and I agree, but honestly some people are just bad at making strategies and take a lot of bad decisions.
We're actually a pretty strategic group. The three deaths I mentioned have all been a result of an unfortunately timed crit (one was with a scythe!) or some other random factor, and our inability to "emergency heal" or mitigate the damage.
If you switch classes, you´re Rogue is screwed with the feat Outflank. Also I personally hate 2WF Rogues. Half bab with penalties is a bad idea in my opinion, but to each its own.
Our rogue had a little trouble hitting at lower levels but now dishes out massive damage consistently. Outflank makes up for the penalties, and with the bard's buffs he has a very competitive attack bonus. Losing Outflank buddies will hurt him but there are other ways to ramp up your attack bonus and I'm sure our GM would let him retrain the feat.
If you can deal with it, I´d go Warpriest. Someone who can cast Cleric spells, but will flank with the rogue and be on the face of enemies, which is something you lack.
It´s either that or a Wizard/Arcanist. The utility they bring on this Path is incredible, I´m playing one.
Seems to be a popular suggestion! It's a great class, and one I haven't actually played yet so it's a solid choice. I'll play around with some builds and see what works. Thanks!
I´m playing a blaster Wizard and my spells are saving the days more times then I can count. We´re level 8 and I still didn´t have the time to cast Haste, because I´m either using Fireball or Improved Invisibility on the Slayer, because he does more damage than the Ninja.
Wizard is classic. You can take archetypes for fun, I took Scrollmaster, to cast scrolls with Feats and CL at level 10, giving up 1 feat and Arcane Bond.
Arcanist is super fun, always ready, Sorcerer progression. There are several archetypes, the most powerful is usually the one to Summon as Standard Action
It all depends on what do you want to do.
A melee cleric is completely viable. Power Attack, Weapon Focus and you´re a force to be reckoned.
Fates Favored+Divine Favor gives a lot for just 1 round of buffing. Youre really close to Quicken as well.
Magical Lineage Divine Favor makes it a level 4 Spell for Quicken.Personally I´m trying to stay away from full Caster from now on because I think they´re just to OP, but you can never go wrong with them
Blaster wizards are amazing, as are Occultist Arcanists (the ones with the standard action summoning ability). The only problem is that two of my current PFS characters are.......a level 7 Thassilonian Evoker (Fireball specialist) and a level 9 Occultist Arcanist (Conjuration specialist)! And they're both wrecking machines. I'd like to try something I haven't played before, or at least that I haven't played recently. Solid advice though!
Wandering spirit and hexes is the beauty of the class. So much choice per day.
Slums is a very good flavor. The spell list is good and in my off days I always make a Bad penny. For RP reasons of course...Grease the palm of a greedy individual and then charm his pants off. His greed is his undoing.
Heavens is a great Spirit. Overland flight, prismatic spray, daylight...Really good spells. Jesture Jaunt is amazing.
Lore is nice late game and if you get an item that boosts your Character and Int you can do a lot with this Spirit.
Bones is great. Do not hate on animate dead. Imagine all those nasty critters you killed in room 1 being raised and sent into room 2 to kill everything while you and the group have tea in room 1.
Lastly Stone is worth noting for wall of stone, stoneskin, Dr adamantine, and a few more goodies. But I like this Spirit as my main spirit for the early game it gives. Levels 1-4 my familiar ends up having more AC and DR than the tank and is great for delivering spells of touch.
Some ideas:
- Melee-Cleric of Iomedae with Tactics and Heroism Domain. Get Heavy Armor, a Cold Iron Grayflame Longsword and Extra Channel. Consider Holy Vindicator so you can use your Channel for offense and defense.
- A skald. Raging song will improve the melee abilities of the party (the rogue misses out, though). Get Beast Totem to add a nice AC-bonus to rage. Wield a shield yourself to be more tanky. Arcane Strike will help your damage. Spell Kenning grants some ridiculously versatile utility.
- Unchained Rogue with 4 levels of fighter (weapon master) for weapon training (+ gloves of dueling later) and Weapon Specialisation. Str 13 for Power Attack otherwise focus on Dex with a finessed elven curve blade. Get Major Magic (Shield) for an on demand AC-Bonus.
- A Stonelord Paladin has pretty good defense and decent offense. Get a reach weapon, preferable a Dwarven Dorn-Dergar (can become a non-reach weapon with a move action).
Other than that, I agree that any 9th level caster will be a great addition to the party. Preferably something with a contorl focus as the party already has many damage dealers.
Heavens is a great Spirit. Overland flight, prismatic spray, daylight...Really good spells. Jesture Jaunt is amazing.
That looks like the winner to me. Thanks!
Some ideas:
- Melee-Cleric of Iomedae with Tactics and Heroism Domain. Get Heavy Armor, a Cold Iron Grayflame Longsword and Extra Channel. Consider Holy Vindicator so you can use your Channel for offense and defense.- A skald. Raging song will improve the melee abilities of the party (the rogue misses out, though). Get Beast Totem to add a nice AC-bonus to rage. Wield a shield yourself to be more tanky. Arcane Strike will help your damage. Spell Kenning grants some ridiculously versatile utility.
- Unchained Rogue with 4 levels of fighter (weapon master) for weapon training (+ gloves of dueling later) and Weapon Specialisation. Str 13 for Power Attack otherwise focus on Dex with a finessed elven curve blade. Get Major Magic (Shield) for an on demand AC-Bonus.
- A Stonelord Paladin has pretty good defense and decent offense. Get a reach weapon, preferable a Dwarven Dorn-Dergar (can become a non-reach weapon with a move action).
Other than that, I agree that any 9th level caster will be a great addition to the party. Preferably something with a contorl focus as the party already has many damage dealers.
Thanks for the ideas. I'm staying away from paladins (don't want alignment restrictions, plus I've already played a few in my time) and I don't want to double up with another rogue. I think the full-caster idea seems to be a good one - I'm thinking either a necromancer or a shaman. I'll likely make up one of each and keep them on-hand for the inevitable...