Hi all, i've tried to make a character that can cast spells both arcane and divine and fight good with a long sword, like Final fantasy (or bravely second) Red Mage!
I mixed some classes and archetype, and i got a very strong build (but only playable at high levels).
He can fight and make a lot of damage (32 str + spell combact/strike) buff himself, cure, debuff, resurrect, make elemental damage... it's an al purpose character!
LV 20 half-elf
STR 22
DEX 7
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 18
5 levels of magus - eldritch scion (abysasal bloodline, to grow large)
4 levels of oracle - lunar mystery (cha to AC and Reflex)
1 (10) levels of mystich theurge
10 Levels of Evangelist (theurge algigned)
Also : Eldritch heritage (and improved) Abyssal (+6 str)
Deific Obedience/diverse obedience Shelin (to gain a smite evil ability, good hope SLA and ah always holy-shock weapon).
In Spirit form and mystical focus he gain 32 STR!
3x attacks + 2x claws + gore.
And spell combact of course!
The bad... at level 20 (with a light armor of +4) he only have 19 AC, but he can cast many protective spells from arcane and divine schools.
And he can cast 2 spells in a round thank to the theurge lv10 ability!
with the right traits, at level 20 he cast like a 16lv magus AND a 17lv oracle! Not bad!
He gains Arcana and Revelation (take more with extra feats)
I take the fate's favored bonus and divine fervor + divine power... very strong!
He got alot of class skills, but non many skill points... btw he have +4 to every untrained skills thanks to the Evangelist bonus.
Spirit form is +4 str and an extra gore attack.
What do you think?
I know... i single clss focused magus/oracle will be stronger, but i think that this can be a very fun character concept, and at high level it can be very usefoul.
If you get time to buff you're tough, if not you go down like a house of cards. Worth noting that you cast like a 15th level magus and a 14th level oracle (one of which can have +2 CL from magical knack but not +2 for spells castable) with the possibility of adding one to one of those with the prestigious spellcaster feat. Which means 5th level (or, barely, 6th) magus spells and 7th level oracle spells which is not actually impressive at level 20. Total BAB at 20 is +13 which is below what is expected for a gish too.
I think once you actually work it out you may be shorter on feats than you think. With so many things to spend them on - metamagic to spell perfection (& spontaneous metafocus if you want to use those with spell combat), spell penetration, favored prestige class & prestigious spellcaster, extra arcana/revelation and combat feats - you're going to be spread thin with just the one bonus feat.
there is an alternative racial trait of the half-elf that let you gain a spelcaster level in each your spellcasting classes if you multiclass.
With thath + magical knack he can cast like a 16lv magus and a 17lv oracle.
For buff : first round you can cast 2x spells... like divine power (+ fate's favored) and haste!
Or shield + shield of faith to boost CA
13 BAB is bad i know... but with 32 strenght + enanched weapon and buff it's pretty easy to hit enemies, and he got 3x natural attacs... so i can make his 3 sword attacs + claw + gore.
I take "multiattack" feat.
Don't think to take many metamagic feats... he use spells for buff and heal, and damage by spellstrike/combact
at lv 20 he cast lv5 magus spells and lv 7 oracle. something like 55+ spells at day!
Personally, the best Red Mage is an Arcane Duelist Bard. They get some divine-like spells and good arcane spells. With Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration you can cast a variety of wizard spells anyway. But you're building a very different kind of character, so I'll focus on that. Just figured I'd mention the bard.
You can cast like a 14th level Oracle and 15th level Magus. Increasing your caster level does NOT increase your spells per day or spell levels known, only the power of your spells. Keep that in mind - I'm not sure if you already factored that in or not.
In 3.5 there was a feat called Practiced Spellcaster that would help you deal with dispelling and such. Does anything similar exist in PF?
Also, part of me thinks one of your best friends should be spells that transform you into different creatures. Maybe?
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I've found a good approximation of a red mage is the occultist. They have a good mix of spells, a decent ability to go into melee, and a fantastic UMD to use scrolls for those times when a spell isn't on their spell list.
Is it exactly what you are looking for? No, but you can cast healing spells if you pick up conjuration, and blasty spells if you pick up evocation, can use a long sword, and can buff yourself to do well in a fight.
Something to consider.
I third the bard, I may be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't the red mage based on the bard class from D&D?
There is also the Puppetmaster archetype for Magus, who get's access to both the Bard and Magus spell-lists.
I third the bard, I may be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't the red mage based on the bard class from D&D?
Correct, the original Final Fantasy was based heavily on D&D - even used Vancian spellcasting - and the Red Mage was based on the bard.
+1 for full bard.
Rules As Written, I suppose you could apply Evangelist Aligned Class to Mystic Theurge, but Rules As Intended, I don't think you are supposed to be able to apply it to a prestige class. So if you want to go into combat AND do all this stuff, it would probably be good to look for a single-class way to do this, or at least a way that uses just 1 prestige class and 1 base class.
One way to get in arcane and divine spells (even though they are all technically cast as divine) would be to be a Shaman (swap Charisma and Wisdom) of Lore with Arcane Enlightenment (Spirit Guide Oracle with the Lore Spirit is another possibility, but beware of a nasty glitch in the wording of the Arcane Enlightenment Hex that some GMs may interpret as meaning it does nothing for an Oracle; DON'T use the regular Lore Mystery Arcane Enlightenment, which is just a trap). But the problem is that this is incredibly MAD, and working back from the ability scores you gave (including +6 Strength from Improved Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) and 5 ability score increases with level, you actually seem to be 2 ability score points short of a 15 point buy. If you are trying to do all this on a 15 point buy, it is commendable (although crazy), but just not going to work for this kind of Shaman or Spirit Guide Oracle, because Arcane Enlightenment also needs high Intelligence. So we need to look elsewhere . . .
Arcane-Focused Options
I was going to mention Spell Sage Wizard, Magaambyan Initiate Arcanist, or Witch to be able to snag divine spells into arcane casting, but these require that you swap Intelligence and Charisma, which kills your plans to get Eldritch Heritage (and VMC Sorcerer eats even more feats and puts your 9th level Bloodline power **6** levels behind, which basically hoses it).
Skald casts from the Bard spell list but can snag Cleric/Oracle or Sorcerer/Wizard spells with Spell Kenning (can also use this to get Bard spells you don't know). Casting of these is Full Round and very limited number of times per day.
Summoner or summoning-focused Sorcerer doesn't cast any divine spells, but you can snag some divine spells (as well as some arcane spells you don't have yourself) by summoning creatures that can cast them.
Divine-Focused Options
As noted above, on 15 point buy (or even 20 point buy) you can't get MAD enough to make a combat-capable Lore Shaman or Spirit Guide Oracle with Lore and Arcane Enlightenment (if you are to get viable use out of Arcane Enlightenment), so divine options are going to have to be something else.
I was going to mention Ecclisitheurge Cleric to be able to use revolving door Domains to scribe scrolls of some arcane spells, but this requires that you swap Wisdom and Charisma, which kills your plans to get Eldritch Heritage (and VMC Sorcerer eats even more feats and puts your 9th level Bloodline power **6** levels behind, which basically hoses it), and makes your Channel Energy ability terrible.
Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle (an Elven archetype, but a Half-Elf can also take it) replaces all Mystery Bonus Spells with Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Each of these spells is late entry by 1 level, so be sure to pick spells that benefit from being 1 level higher than they would normally be (at least, they should be able to benefit from having a higher Save DC, as if a Sorcerer or Wizard had cast them with 1 level of Heighten Spell). Note that as an Ancient Lorekeeper, even though you don't get the normal class skills or Mystery Spells, you are not limited in your choice of Mystery or Revelations, so even though it isn't officially recommended, you could, for instance, take the Battle Mystery and go hog-wild with the combat-oriented Revelations, and it would work just fine.
Summoning-focused Oracle doesn't cast any arcane spells, but you can snag some arcane spells (as well as some divine spells you don't have yourself) by summoning creatures that can cast them. You can combine this with Ancient Lorekeeper above.
Thanks to all
But i d'not think that bad is the way...
he have performance, to buff and support others... his spell list is limited, and have some problems with "action economy".
My builds can spell combact... so cast spells and full'attack in a round. or can cast 2x spells with the theurge ability!
My fisrt build was a magus + warpriest that can use fervor to quick buff spells... but it was too MAD so i switch to Oracle and made a CHA base character.
Round 1 : mirror image + divine power
Round 2 : frostbite and full attack (6 attacks with 32 str. Frostbite damage, better if rimed, a lot of damage with spell strike... and grow large with abyssal bloodline).
A bard can't do this in just 2 rounds...
This is at 20th level, right? Un-metamagiced frostbite is a waste of time, foes will be immune/sufficiently resistant to cold damage or nonlethal damage or have high SR or just have too many HP to worry about it. Mirror image is still often good but not always - true seeing negates it.
Let's see ... L20 dervish dancer bard.
Round 1: quickened mirror image (swift), start inspire courage (+8 competence attack and damage) battle dance (move), cast dance of a thousand cuts (+5 morale attack, damage, acrobatics, AC & get haste) (standard).
Round 2: maintain battle dance (free), move and full attack using battle fury (full-round), if required cast timely inspiration (immediate).
A bard can do better than your suggestion in just 2 rounds.
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Another good option is the elven lorekeeper oracle with the battle mystery. You have everything you need to excel in melee from the battle revelations, you have divine spells from your base class, and you have your choice of important arcane spells from the archetype. Choose the right curse and you can add more arcane spells.
^That's the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype I was talking about above.
* * * * * * * *
I thought of another idea after I left last night, but it requires so much progression with d6 and 1/2 BAB that it's a long shot, and then you need to roleplay a hero who gets redeemed after being initially duped into working for an evil con artist/mastermind:
Razmiran Priest Sorcerer with the Draconic Bloodline(*) (still get Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal)(*) and then Improved Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) to boost your combat abilities). Squeeze in Toughness and Great Fortitude (these are included among your Bloodline Feats, but better to get them as soon as you can) so that you are less likely to die, and go nuts with self-buffing (give first priority to defense, to alleviate your horrible Touch AC caused by your terrible Dexterity, which is added as insult to the injury caused by your lack of ability to wear armor). Then go into Dragon Disciple to get really tough and get even more Strength, although your BAB only gets a little bit better than if you stayed single-class Sorcerer (gradually creaps up to 5/8 instead of staying at 1/2). Razmiran Priest lets you fake divine casting, and eventually you get good enough at it that given scrolls of whatever you want to cast, you can make it actually work. The problem is that the latter ability replaces the 9th level Bloodline Power(**), which means that Rules As Written, the Blood of Dragons property of Dragon Disciple won't give it to you if you go over to Dragon Disciple before then -- hence the need for really late entry into Dragon Disciple. You can use Prestigious Spellcaster(***) (requires Favored Prestige Class(***) as a feat tax) to make up for levels of Dragon Disciple that don't advance spellcasting, although this is really expensive in feats.
(*)Both Abyssal and Draconic Bloodlines have Claws for their 1st level power, which eventually upgrade to doing energy damage; for Abyssal, this is always Fire but for Draconic, it depends upon your associated Dragon type, so pick one that DOESN'T have Fire, so that you have 2 types to use in case you are up against something that resists or is immune to 1 of them; the separate durations mean that you will actually have a decent chance to able to use them in much of your combat without running out, although you should still keep a backup weapon just in case -- since Claws do Slashing and Piercing, make your backup weapon Bludgeoning, which is also good in case you specifically need that. I was going to mention alternatively using the Half-Elf Ancestral Arms alternative racial trait to get proficient with the Elven Branched Spear and go for Reach action and +2 on Attacks of Opportunity, but you don't have the Dexterity to make this good.
(**)For the Draconic Bloodline, this is Breath Weapon -- 3rd level of Dragon Disciple will give it to you anyway, although your number of uses per day will be 1 lower than if you hadn't taken an archetype that trades this out.
(***)These feats are not yet on Archives of Nethys.
If you got a bloodline (with sorcerer or bloodrager...) you cant take eldritch heritage... of another bloodline!
If you got a bloodline (with sorcerer or bloodrager...) you cant take eldritch heritage... of another bloodline!
Why not?
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Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
It's clear from the feat text that sorcerers can take the feat and they must choose a bloodline they do not already have.
Hero lab don't allow me to choose a bloodline with eldritch heritage if i already got one from class....
Hero Lab is an unthinking program made by an unofficial third party (and thus is not always accurate). What it allows or does not allow should not be taken as the official rule.
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This is at 20th level, right? Un-metamagiced frostbite is a waste of time, foes will be immune/sufficiently resistant to cold damage or nonlethal damage or have high SR or just have too many HP to worry about it. Mirror image is still often good but not always - true seeing negates it.
Let's see ... L20 dervish dancer bard.
Round 1: quickened mirror image (swift), start inspire courage (+8 competence attack and damage) battle dance (move), cast dance of a thousand cuts (+5 morale attack, damage, acrobatics, AC & get haste) (standard).
Round 2: maintain battle dance (free), move and full attack using battle fury (full-round), if required cast timely inspiration (immediate).
A bard can do better than your suggestion in just 2 rounds.
Yeah, dervish dancer bard can do it all with one class at that level.