Hi All,
My group is entirely new players, though some are in multiple games right now and are learning faster than others.
The PCs are about to go to the Catacombs or to Thistletop. They're going to wake up in the morning to The Missing Bartender, but they've been hell-bent for the last session and a half on going to Thistletop, so they may well do that, despite strong hints that they should not yet. So, to the question:
I think it's quite likely that there will be a TPK in the near future, especially if they go to Thistletop now. We're early enough in the game where a mass party resurrection doesn't make sense in-game, and it's a new enough group of players that I don't want to get them used to deus ex machina. I also don't love the idea of "Oh, all of your siblings who have similar abilities to you/another party of adventurers/etc show up in town the day after you die." So while a TPK may well not happen, I want to be ready with something that they'll all enjoy.
What I've settled on (at least for now) is this:
Anything I'm not thinking to ask?
I will note that I haven't completed reading the entire Anniversary Edition - I'm just now to the Runeforge - so if there are other implications that I'm not considering by adding a gap of time to the beginning of the adventure, I'd appreciate knowing.
Pointing out that Sandpoint would have to fight on two fronts if the goblins and catacomb denizens both attack while the party is away may be enough to convince them to deal with the catacombs first.
If your PCs are adamant about going to Thistletop, I'd recommend rewriting Thisteltop to be doable by Level 2 PCs. Design it so that they reach Level 3 upon completing Thistletop. Then rewrite the catacombs to be a worthy challenge for Level 3 PCs that will push them to Level 4 upon completion. That way they would be on track level-wise for the rest of the AP. I'd have the climax of the adventure take place in the catacombs.
You can always move RotR 7 years into the future if you get a TPK. Rewriting the AP to take place 7 years into the future shouldn't be too hard. There are very few hard references to time in the RotR. The players will never know that you moved the AP 7 years in the future.
The main problem is that
Speaking of Sheriff Hemlock, he did leave town to seek support from Mangimar. So you have a credible explanation for a new party of adventurers arriving in town.
Cat,
If I had time to rewrite the AP, I definitely would do that. And I know there's justification for new adventurers showing up, but I want a connection to the game, as all are first time players who might give up if they don't feel like their initial characters mattered.
I've read elsewhere that many have used Malfeshnekor as justification for delaying Nualia's attack by a few days, but would she wait 7 years? Would there be an uneasy truce in Sandpoint with the goblins, neither able to destroy the other? Would the goblins agree to hold off, so long as Sandpoint paid tribute?
I also wonder a bit how much players actually end up understanding about Nualia's motives- if her motive became to rule rather than to burn, and I allowed her to transform by means other than burning the entire town, (which might put her more into the greed camp), she could be ruling Sandpoint from Thistletop - if so, what would it be like for the kids to grow up in a town rules by a half fiend and her goblins?
My advice is not to overthink this. Let them go to Thistletop if they want. If they get TPKd, they get TPKd. They can always roll up new PCs and Sheriff Hemlock can hire them to help defend Sandpoint. The campaign continues with the players a little bit wiser. It might be a good early lesson in knowing when to press forward and when to retreat.
I wish I hadn't given the details of the situation. I don't mind if they get TPKed, I'm just planning out the solution that works for my game (the kids). The question is about implications of a 7 year gap of time between the initial goblin assault and dealing with Nualia.
My other option is to build a party out of various townsfolk that they've met, which is something I'd prefer not to do since they have established personalities. And yes, I know they can just roll fresh characters or I can deus ex machina to save them - trust me when I say that neither suits the story I want to tell nor the players in my game.
Sheriff Hemlock also asks the party to stick around town while he's gone. Haring off to a goblin-infested island on a whim doesn't really count as sticking around town.
Something you could do, which is kind of heavy-handed, but much easier than trying to re-write the whole AP, is to have them ambushed by Bruthazmus and some Thistletop goblins on the way there. Make it clear they're out of their league and if it gets too bad have Shalelu ride to the rescue to drive the bugbear off and then ask them why they left Sandpoint unguarded.
So far Sheriff Hemlock's request has kept them in town, but only because Shalelu also keeps reminding them of it. She also keeps telling them that they aren't ready, but I'm not the railroading type, so I can't just keep saying no forever or they will stop looking for their own solutions, and only for the ones I give them.
Cat,
If I had time to rewrite the AP, I definitely would do that. And I know there's justification for new adventurers showing up, but I want a connection to the game, as all are first time players who might give up if they don't feel like their initial characters mattered.
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, rewriting entire scenarios is a little hairy. I understand if you don't want to do that.
Since you're so worried about a TPK, you may want to play the encounters so that your party gets a chance to escape once they realize they are overmatched. Goblins having bad tactics/discipline would be a good way to do this while being in character for them. For example, when one of the characters drops, several goblins might get distracted looting that character. Good luck getting the players to retreat before one of their characters dies, though.
Looking back at your original post, you said that you were about to run the missing bartender scenario. Getting your players to play through the catacombs first would not be difficult:
It sounds like your players are going to Thistletop to bring the fight to the goblins. In that case, all you have to do is have someone from Sandpoint inform them that a large group of goblins has broken into the glassworks and murdered all of the workers.
Tsuto's journal should be enough to motivate the players to explore the catacombs. I would recommend changing the journal to state that Tsuto has already convinced Eryllium to assault the town. Adding a battle plan involving Eryllium and co. attacking the town from within would be a nice touch.
That should get them back on track.
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I preface this with the comment that I've been running RPGs for 15 years and have access to any number of adventure paths or modules I could ever want to run... If you don't have that luxury, this may sound like a bad suggestion.
If you would like to let them TPK, I recommend ending the game at that point. Give them a little epilogue about Sandpoint burning in a goblin attack, and then shortly thereafter, an invasion from the Storval Plateau from an army of giants and a risen Runelord.
Then ask what they would like to do next! If you like printed adventures, run them another Adventure Path and set it in a world with no Sandpoint, and an alliance of nations (Lastwall, Ustalav, Korvosa and Magnimar, maybe even Belkzen!) against the rising power of a reborn Karzoug.
My players are sad when they TPK, but they understand that there is no coming back from it, and they tend to enjoy the thought that their failures and successes have a long term effect on the world they play in.
If they get TPK'd, then a lot depends on whether or not they deplete Nualia's forces to deter an attack. Otherwise, Emerald Cat hit the nail on the head- Nualia's not going to wait to attack.
Thanks, Cat, for the suggestion about Goblins invading the Glassworks. That's probably what I will do if Ameiko isn't a strong enough reason for them to go.
I'm actually not worried about a TPK, assuming I can make my solution work. It might even be better (I have some buyers remorse among the players over some character choices). My only worry, and the only reason I posted at all in the first place, was to have some other brains help me game out what might happen in Sandpoint over 7 years from the Swallowtail Festival to the elimination of the Thistletop threat.
Everyone is giving me great answers to questions I'm not asking, like how to direct the PCs and other ways to handle a TPK. I spent the week since my last session searching the boards for solutions to both of those issues, and while I'm grateful to all of you for your advice on these subjects, it's not answering the question I'm asking, which is about the passage of time.
Everyone is giving me great answers to questions I'm not asking, like how to direct the PCs and other ways to handle a TPK. I spent the week since my last session searching the boards for solutions to both of those issues, and while I'm grateful to all of you for your advice on these subjects, it's not answering the question I'm asking, which is about the passage of time.
I think the reason you're getting advice that doesn't directly respond to the question you've asked is that (at least in my case) I thought you had chosen a really bizarre solution (jumping things 7 years in the future) to a relatively commonplace problem (a TPK). But, if you really want to do it, some of the things to think about:
1. What is Sandpoint like seven years from now? Who has died (from natural causes perhaps), what stores have closed, what stores have opened, what people have left town? You'll have to figure out how the place has changed, organically.
2. What have the bad guys been doing for the last seven years? (Nualia, Xanesha, Mokmurian, etc.) Things need to be far worse in Varisia, otherwise there would have been no need for heroes to arise in the first place.
3. What cascading effects does this have on pre-set timelines? Just to give one example, the timeline for the recent events involving Foxglove Manor and the Skinsaw Man's progression.
It's certainly do-able, but requires a lot of extra work to make everything fit together. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
I think the reason you're getting advice that doesn't directly respond to the question you've asked is that (at least in my case) I thought you had chosen a really bizarre solution (jumping things 7 years in the future) to a relatively commonplace problem (a TPK).
Exactly right, which is why I wish I hadn't framed it so much. And you lay out the questions well, so I thank you. That's what I was looking for
I've got an unusual group of players, which is why it's an unusual solution. There's almost a 20 year span in ages, and almost no gaming experience. I've had little trouble getting them to connect to Sandpoint, so much so that it's been 4 sessions and we're only just now getting to the Catacombs. If there is no TPK between now and the end of BURNT OFFERINGS, the kids are going to become McGuffins in the next three chapters, so hopefully this is all a mute conversation. And I may not pursue this course, I just wanted to game out what the work is and whether it's worth it.
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Rules doesn't matter because NPCs always use plot to win rules. Thats how they create artifacts :D
Aka, ap as written implies Nualia is only weeks away before her visions from her goddess and Lyrie's research creates ritual that gets rid of the particular binding that keeps Malfeshnekor in prison. Malfeshnekor is Lamashtu's servant who has been in contact with Nualia, that as much said. After he is realized, Nualia plans to unite all major goblin tribes of area with the barghest and recruit additional goblins from mountains north to the area for massive assaullt on sandpoint. So basically, if pcs take too long, sandpoint will be assaulted by hundreds of goblins.
Another option to consider would be that the events you've played so far aren't directly related to the rest of the story - the goblin attack and the theft of father Tobyn's bones weren't part of Nualia's plan. In the intervening seven years, she comes along and sets her plan in motion - which is what the now-grown-up kids get drawn into, while investigating what happened to the former heroes (who were killed by the Thistletop goblins without Nualia's aid).
Alternatively, you can say that it was all part of Nualia's plan, but this got disrupted somehow, by events outside her control. Perhaps Thistletop was attacked by some other monsters, or father Tobyn's bones were stolen before they got to Thistletop, and it's taken her seven years to get back on track.
In either case, you'll need to explain Ameiko's disappearance, if you've run the Missing Bartender encounter but they didn't take the bait. In this case, maybe Tsuto wasn't yet involved with Nualia, and had just returned to have things out with his family. Ameiko met him, and then escorted him out of town, returning a few days later. Seven years later, he comes back - this time with murderous intent, spurred on by Nualia.
You'll also need to find a way to link Aldern Foxglove to the new characters.