GMs Hiding Rolls: Yes or No?

[Anzyr]

Kung Fu Joe wrote:

TOZ wrote:

From village guards?

I only hear those numbers from double digit CR outsiders.

In a lot of Paizo AP modules, the village guards ARE double-digit CR outsiders. And for some reason no one thinks it's odd that a devil capable of subjugating entire kingdoms spends decades sitting with 5 of his friends in room C12 cutting up turnips, because sooner or later the adventurers will happen by and it would be disappointing if the fight wasn't suitably epic.

Look I'll admit Sandpoint has some astonishingly high level people who should be way more up to the task of the AP than the PCs, but it's not like the average guard is that awesome. Same thing with say Xin-Shalast. A literal lost city in the last part of the AP that has multiple low CR guards lying around waiting to be converted into loot. I think you may be overstating this issue.

[Jaçinto]

I hate using builds but sometimes you get smacked down with the same stuff so much that you're gonna eventually make a character that beats that thing. Plus I just think a kitsune would be neat. The Hell's Rebels AP was constantly beating my DCs and apparantly we were being spied on 24/7 no matter how much security we had set up so everyone knew my character's secret identities and always knew every time my identity was changed. So I go in to an AP now always assuming anything we try will fail and we will never get the upper hand so stay on the railroad.

A GM hiding rolls is supposed to let the players get around the BS that is written by means of things like Rule of Cool.

Punish stupid, reward smart and cool. Can't do that really if all rolls are shown.

[Devilkiller]

I didn't really mean to spark a debate on whether DM "fudging" is cheating so much as to offer some advice on stuff which might obviate the need for fudging to provide in-game stability. If the DM is fudging for control as Anzyr talked about then such measures might not help much (like if the DM feels that the special NPC with a special weapon which has a special effect when it crits just "has to" crit somebody and declares a nat 20 after rolling a 13 - there are certain spells and powers for stuff like that though...)

@Jacinto - I've played a lot of APs by now, and when they're difficult it is usually because the DM has been changing things and amping up encounters. The plot railroad can be a problem with most published adventures, but I think most groups can usually roleplay "with the grain" and make a fun ride of it.

Daw wrote:

Why a roleplaying/storytelling approach might require fudging of roles.

Sometimes the dice screw up the story, usually killing a character in a useless, unheroic way. We used to call this a straw death, especially when the players did everything right. Any decent GM, by our way of thinking, would fudge away straw death. If fairness was an issue, the bad luck could be fudged back in to allow the character to die in a more meaningful way.

This is sort of what I expected and one reason why I so highly recommend Hero Points. You can obviously still die while using them, especially at 1st level, but they make death by a single unlucky roll (or a few lucky rolls by the DM) a lot less likely over the course of the game.

It is also why I like the idea of keeping most encounters close to CR = APL. This should probably be enough to keep a typical party pretty well engaged if the DM uses solid tactics. Not every fight will be a life and death struggle, but the monsters get a lot of chances during a campaign, so eventually they’ll tend to have a good run once in awhile.

That said, I think dice being rolled out in the open is the most fun way to do things. I can't force others to enjoy it, but I invite them to try it. Maybe it could be liberating or even strangely thrilling to see your d20 bounce out onto the table and deliver total devastation or comic relief (probably in roughly equal measure over the course of time)

[HWalsh]

necromental wrote:

Sorry, I come to play pathfinder, not CR155finder or Tonifinder(my gm) or anyone-else-finder, so any rule that's not in the books and not agreed before the game, I constitute as cheating. Unclear rules, grey areas of intent and similar stuff are discussed with players, not decided behind the screen. I also GM, and almost everyone in my group GM'd at least once (all of ones who are interested in rules, at least).

The GM fudging rolls is part of Pathfinder. Not Tonifinder, not CR155finder, but Pathfinder. It is in the GMG, it has been part of the game since day one, it falls under rule 0.

What you *want* to play is PFS where the DM is required to adhere to strict rules and cannot deviate from them what so ever.

Fudging is not, and has never been, cheating. It is part of the GM/DM's job and literally, in my opinion of having been gaming for the last 28 years (1988 was so long ago...) any GM/DM who doesn't fudge at all isn't aware how it, properly applied, enhances the game for everyone.

[HWalsh]

For me, Pathfinder, any role playing game is a chance for the players to take roles in a story.

For some people they think that role playing is a pure sandbox where the GM is nothing but an arbitrator of the rules who has limited control over the game world. They have an US (players) vs THEM (GM) mentality.

This means the GM has to play by the same hard coded rules that they do. If they fudge a roll the cheated "to win."

When I run, I am a narrator.

The players have limited scope and control over the world. Keyword: Limited.

Me? I don't have limited control. A player cannot "beat" me as the GM. I "allow" the players the chance to succeed or fail but they can't "beat me" and they shouldn't want to beat me.

Why not? Because I'm not trying to beat them. I'm trying to make something that EVERYONE enjoys. If that means that the bad guy rolled a 17 instead of an 18 and as such missed killing a PC in a fight that, ultimately, wasn't a major battle then so be it.

Guess what? That player's satisfaction isn't going to change because he can't see what I rolled and I've had literally decades of experience doing this.

Its called, I know my player's AC's, and I have a notepad that I keep their HP on. If Bartalus the Fighter has an AC of 25 and is currently at 8 HP because I rolled and confirmed a crit on the first part of a 3 attack full attack, and I know that the damage this thing does is 2d6+9 and the 2nd attack misses, but the 3rd attack hits and nobody has had time to save Bartalus... Here is what the player is going to hear:

"Bartalus, the mantis creature raises one of it's curved claws and plunges it deep into your stomach. You can feel it striking something as blood begins to fill your lungs. You cough up red liquid as it retracts the blade... You have taken 30 damage from the critical hit."

"The creature lashes out with its other claw, but despite your injuries you manage to evade the lethal blow. You prepare to breathe a sigh of relief but then flinch back as the blood soaked talon that pierced you initially lashes out again, this time narrowly avoiding being impaled again..."

He doesn't know I fudged. He doesn't know I saved him. He doesn't need to know.

Now, lets say Bartalus does something stupid, or the party doesn't heal him, or do something to draw the monster's attention... Yes... I'd attack again on the next turn and I'd let it stick. However I'm rarely going to let simple bad luck, in a non-critical encounter, ruin a game.