Something I noticed when it comes to abilities like Kitsune's Shapechange, the Hat of Disguise, Realistic Likeness, and the Vigilante's Dual Identities... Is that for each, despite the bonus to the check, and that in some cases its a physical change, it can still be "seen through".
Trying to figure out the mental image of a random guard seeing that a Kitsune in their human form isn't human is amusing to me. As is the mental image of someone staring at a Wild-Soul Vigilante recreation of "Spider-Man" and being like "holy hell! that's Peter Parker!" with zero face even showing.
What I'd like to hear is if this has ever actually happened. And if so, what was the general thing that tipped the observer off that there was any disguise at all?
... More importantly, what kind of shenanigans ensued; both before and after the unmasking? With disguises, shenanigans are always involved; even when it fails.
In my games I don't rule that the guard would know what you are... they would just know what you aren't. Change into a dog and fail at acting like a dog and they will figure out that you aren't a dog. Not that you were really an ancient dragon.
That situation would still be pretty odd. A guard looking at a dog acting strangely has a good reason to assume its an awakened animal playing dumb. To go from "this dog is acting strangely" to "I'm not sure this dog is even a dog" can sometimes seem like a leap in logic. Perhaps prompting another guard to ask how they can tell.
Of course... Then there's the Kitsune example, which raises the question of "how different is the behaviour of a Human and a Kitsune really?" given that Kitsune behaviour can be just as expected out of certain groups of humans.
That's what I really want to hear here, the deductions made in character by the one that noticed the disguise. In the dog's case it would likely be some contextual clue like "what would an awakened dog who's traveling alone need with a glove?"
I think I'm looking for stories of some kind of detective reasoning here.
|
Keep in mind that beating a Disguise check by 10 or more requires a very good Perception result, so the clues are potentially very subtle - and often baked into how a character does something rather than the broad strokes of what you describe them doing at table.
I can't recall a specific incident in a game I've played, but some ideas:
1) Vocal tells. Even if you don't outright recognize Peter Parker's voice you might be able to spot an accent, unusual word choice, or other element of speech that would give you a clue.
2) Mannerisms. Does the kitsune in human form momentarily brush at their backside before they sit down, as if expecting there to be a tail?
3) Imperfect changes. In many myths, shapechangers are unable to make a perfect copy and certain elements might clue an observer in. Examples include a mark that shows up across forms (think Peter Pettigrew's missing fingers), an odd shadow, or even cloven feet. Since these represent a flaw in the disguise they're best used when the shapechanger's disguise check is low.
A guard looking at a dog acting strangely has a good reason to assume its an awakened animal playing dumb. To go from "this dog is acting strangely" to "I'm not sure this dog is even a dog" can sometimes seem like a leap in logic.
Awaken is a high-level spell with an expensive material component. I would expect most guards to be more familiar with shapeshifting druids than with the awaken spell. Though I suppose the first guess for some animals might be "familiar."
So, I'm no expert on how this works, but the way I see it...
- Disguise Self is 100% visual and is opposed by Perception, because all it does is magically add to a Disguise check. A flicker in the spell is all that's needed to alert a perceptive NPC. I know this isn't what the topic about, but it's a good contrast.
-Alter Self (and other Polymorph spells), however, turns you into an actual human, dog, w/e. It does it, it works, there's no Perception check to overcome it because there's nothing to perceive. You're a human. HOWEVER, you still have to act like one. Alter Self gives no bonus to Bluff. So Sense Motive is really what gives away Alter Self- not necessarily that Alter Self is being used, but that something weird is going on. That's where mannerisms and maybe even vocal tells come into play.
- However, Alter Self only turns you into a generic human (or dog, or w/e). If you wanted to, say, pretend to be a priest, or a specific human, you're getting into disguise check territory. Which works like any other Disguise Check, except you have a +10 boost for having used Alter Self to get within the ballpark physically. If the NPC makes the Perception check, then they can figure out that you aren't what you're disguised as- but that doesn't give away the Alter Self disguise. Sense Motive or Detect Magic would be required for that.
- That said, if someone makes that disguise check, and there are other elements that suggest Alter Self may be in play (hmmm, there was a fox here earlier), there's nothing stopping an NPC (or player, for that matter), from putting two and two together.
So based on that analysis, a guard could never figure out a shapechanger is around based on Perception-radar alone, unless the shapechanger left actual clues to percieve. Sense Motive goes a long way, Detect Magic makes it almost too easy, and actual deductive reasoning is always an option.
If I missed some understanding in how this works, please clarify for me.
(Also, Realistic likeness has always confused me, because Polymorph spells have always granted +10 to disguise checks, and disguise checks have always been able to imitate other people. I'm assuming this would actually give you +20 to imitate specific people, which seems high, but it IS a feat that has been spent on it. It does complicate what happens when people make the disguise check- I figure this is where imperfect transformations might work, but otherwise I imagine it's more like "He looks like the king, but he was wearing the clothes the wrong way, HE CAN'T BE THE KING")
|
|
@PK the Dragon - I don't think that's how the rules work.
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
...
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.
The bonus to disguise checks applies generally, which implies that you can indeed make a Perception check (not a Sense Motive check) to see through a Polymorph effect. I agree with Luthorne's interpretation that the wording "take on the shape" and "appear to be" indicates that an imperfect transformation is possible and even likely if the shapechanger isn't skilled in the nuances of Disguise.
Since you can't use polymorph spells to turn into specific individuals, they give you no bonus to a Disguise check to impersonate a specific person. (I do think it's a reasonable house-rule to reduce or eliminate Disguise penalties for impersonating a different race, gender, etc. You can't use Alter Self to turn your elven sorceress into the orc chief, but you can at least take on the build, skin tone, etc of a generic orc male, making the task about as difficult as disguising the average orc male as the chief.)
Normally Kitsune turn into a specific human and only get a +10 bonus to appear human generally ("The red-headed human bard, Simon, is totally not a fox person!") Realistic Likeness lets you impersonate specific people, giving you a +10 bonus to appear to be specific humans, which is valuable because normally you can't do this with a polymorph effect.
I should have specified- physically, you are a human, or exactly human in terms of appearance, which is what matters for perception checks. (I find the subject of "how human are you" to be an seriously fascinating one metaphysically speaking, but it's not particularly relevant for my argument right now) When a guard makes a perception check, they can get a 30 but what they'll see is just "they see a human".
So my argument is that Alter Self by itself doesn't trigger any Perception checks, because there's nothing to perceive that is out of the ordinary.
That changes if you take a form that requires use of an ability to make it work- but that's a result of specific circumstances. It gets more extreme with bigger spells that allow you to turn into monsters with more and more unique abilities, to the point where Perception CAN give Polymorph spells away, but that's specifically "seeing clues", as opposed to "seeing through the spell". I'd almost consider it a Bluff fail to try to act like a creature the spell doesn't really let you act like. I definitely don't object to that. I just don't think the mechanics of the spell allow Perception to do much against the spell if there aren't any other clues present.
I do want to say that it's perfectly fine to decide an imperfect transformation (beyond the usual Alter Self limitations) gave the spell away. I just don't think by default, mechanically, that can happen, so that's something that should be discussed between player and gm as the situation occurs.
@PK the Dragon - I don't think that's how the rules work.
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
...
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.
The bonus to disguise checks applies generally, which implies that you can indeed make a Perception check (not a Sense Motive check) to see through a Polymorph effect. I agree with Luthorne's interpretation that the wording "take on the shape" and "appear to be" indicates that an imperfect transformation is possible and even likely if the shapechanger isn't skilled in the nuances of Disguise.
Since you can't use polymorph spells to turn into specific individuals, they give you no bonus to a Disguise check to impersonate a specific person. (I do think it's a reasonable house-rule to reduce or eliminate Disguise penalties for impersonating a different race, gender, etc. You can't use Alter Self to turn your elven sorceress into the orcish chief, but you can at least take on the build, skin tone, etc of a generic orc male.)
Normally Kitsune turn into a specific human and only get a +10 bonus to appear human generally ("The red-headed human bard, Simon, is totally not a fox person!") Realistic Likeness lets you impersonate specific people, giving you a +10 bonus to appear to be specific humans, which is valuable because normally you can't do this with a polymorph effect.
See, I go back and forth on that part, it's definitely the part I feel least sure about. I've looked at the description though, and all it says is you get a +10 bonus to disguise checks, with no elaboration. I take that to mean write in a +10 temporary bonus next to your disguise skill when polymorphed. There's the famous no specific individual clause, but it says nothing about denying the Disguise bonus to disguising yourself as a person- which is completely different than turning into that person. I also don't see anything in Alter Self that says you need to make a Disguise Check to make the spell work, it just gives you a general bonus.
If I have missed any errata, forum posts, or even other parts of the core book that illuminate this, please let me know.
EDIT: To your last post, I'd argue that it just says +10 to disguise checks. I can see how in context it implies disguise checks to appear human (or w/e), but I always interpreted the bonus to disguise as the bonus from appearing as the creature (you have the shape, this is the benefit), as opposed to a limitation on appearing as the creature (you have to make a disguise check to even get the spell to work), if that makes sense.
I could be wrong. I hope I'm not, because the interpretation of having to make a disguise check to make use of alter self encourages rolling to failure (that is, walking down a street will have a high chance of SOMEONE rolling a 20 eventually and exposing you) while there's already an element of that with the bluffing that would be required to pull it off. That said, I fully understand where you're coming from.
Ok, I think I get the problem.
Normally, in order to appear as another race you need to make a disguise check. Alter self, despite saying "you assume the form" doesn't say anything about not having to make a disguise check. I always kind of assumed it was self-evident that you don't have to disguise yourself as what you physically are, but I see if you're making the argument that you're not even technically what you physically are, then disguise comes back into play. I don't like this interpretation because of my concerns about natural 20 perception rolls if too many people are around, but I can see how you could interpret it working this way.
I still maintain the Disguise bonus is global though. There's nothing in the wording that say it isn't. And on the SRD the polymorph page lists it as a simple +10 to disguise checks. (which is part of where my confusion came from, because I saw that first). Which means at least someone else interpreted it similarly to how I did.
(This also explains why I've never actually seen anyone use Alter Self in a real game- it's confusing, lol)
That's pretty much the sole reason I've been considering playing a Metamorph Alchemist at some point, is the duration. The rest of the class is a joke, but the novelty of having Alter Self and friends working for an hour/level seems like it'd be fun.
Ok, those rules make it more manageable. I think I'll rule it differently in my home games because I'm not 100% convinced, but uh, I'll be aware that this interpretation exists... and knowing my luck, it's probably closer to the Way Things Really Work (tm). Still, for a character that is good enough at Bluff to make use of Alter Self, it should be ok to use Disguise,assuming the GM uses those rules to avoid rolling to failure.
(PS: Sorry about the thread derail >_>)