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No it doesn't, all he states is that Outsiders actions are set by their alignment because they're preset. You don't have a bunch of N Celestials with the absolute freedom to choose their alignment the way mortals and native outsiders do. He also specifically mentioned NON-Native Outisders.
Peri (mention feeling guilt over fallen celestial ancestors)
Erinyes (typically made from good outsiders who strayed from good)
Asmodeus (previously a celestial)
Sahkil (previously psychopomps who decided to quit)
Oni (can potentially form from fallen Kami)
The Redemption Engine (forced redemption yielded fallen angels)
Shamira (heavily implied to be an ex-celestial or directly tied to Sarenrae)
Peri - Native Outsider, and they guilt over their ancestors, and?
Erinyes - okay, fallen angels
Asmodeues - whether he was a Celestial or if he even "fell" is HIGHLY debatable and one of the universe's mysteries
Sakhil - Psychopomps are not aligned outsiders, so a lot more freedom than aligned outsiders
Oni - Native Outsider, also not aligned. Kami - Native Outsider, also not aligned.
The Redemption Engine - uh yeah, criminals were forcibly given angelic bodies, not really any redeeming or falling going on there save for the perpetrators, who were forcibly felled by an artifact.
Shamira - unique being heavily hinted to be Sarenrae's daughter.
Becoming Good aligned =/= Redeemed
Likewise, becoming Evil aligned is not equal to being corrupted.
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I think the moral of this (and other threads currently running about Infernal Healing) is that no, we cannot ditch the nonsense with Infernal Healing. Infernal Healing appears to generate unlimited nonsense.
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@Tarik
Asmodeus, as per DnD/Pathfinder tradition is his completely own thing, not just a reskinned Lucifer. And if we have an archdevils opinion on it? We have a bunch more from all over the place.
Sakhil/Psychopomps are not aligned outsiders, they do not have an alignment subtype the same way that Celestials and Devils have. They have more freedom in their alignment than outsiders with an alignment subtype.
And the BoD talks about Celestial's falling and the like. So? I never stated they couldn't, my response was just in response to yours. Aligned outsiders have their mindset and alignment preset when they're created. Doesn't mean they're mindless or completely lack free will.
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Becoming Good aligned =/= RedeemedLikewise, becoming Evil aligned is not equal to being corrupted.Um, well yeah, ya kinda are. You're evil now.
The Becoming Good =/= Redeemed I meant literally, as becoming Good does not make up for all the bad things you've done.
Being redeemed doesn't mean you've 'made up' for all your evil deeds. In literature, being redeemed is often a path and not a destination(at least not in life). As you can't undo what you have done, the universe is always worse than it could have been. You can only do better in the future(or hijack a time machine I guess... this is fantasy after all and those exist in the context of this game).
So, you are correct to say that becoming good does not mean you are redeemed as to be redeemed requires you to choose to do good in an attempt to be better than your evil self because you regret your evil deeds.
But, if you become good without that affirmation then you are not redeemed... you are just good now, sort of randomly. Which is not typical, but possible.
Being corrupt does not require any motives. It is just simply being evil or morally depraved.
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I think the moral of this (and other threads currently running about Infernal Healing) is that no, we cannot ditch the nonsense with Infernal Healing. Infernal Healing appears to generate unlimited nonsense.
To be fair... very little of this nonsense directly comes from the existence of one spell. Consider it a break from the line of 'does a paladin fall if x' threads.
It's mostly the nonsense that generates from anything related to alignment issues.Then add on the nonsense that spawns from non-perfect game design(no help for this, as it has a 100% occurrence rate).
Then add on the fact that this is a forum.
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The entire point of this exercise was to find outsiders that could act outside the alignment stamp in their stat block (Which is not possible according to JJ's post). Examples given show that it is looking at the crop of fallen outsiders that exist (you can throw the first crop of Divs to that list as well). I have very minimal idea what you're arguing at this point since my entire point is predicated on "Aligned outsiders can behave outside their alignment" to which you...agree. Congrats I guess.
*pinches nose*
JJ did not say that. At all. He said their alignments are preset. That's a bit different than "not possible to change".
Divs are corrupted genies (also not aligned outsiders) btw.
I'm arguing with you pointing to JJ's post saying aligned outsiders have preset alignments and decisions and you taking that to mean that they can't ever change or act outside their alignment. They can. He never said they couldn't.
Becoming Good aligned =/= RedeemedLikewise, becoming Evil aligned is not equal to being corrupted.Um, well yeah, ya kinda are. You're evil now.
The Becoming Good =/= Redeemed I meant literally, as becoming Good does not make up for all the bad things you've done.
wait wait wait..and let me see if I understand this correctly.
So Stabby Mcpuppyeater is Evil (I mean just look at that name...). His deeds are dark indeed, anything from murder, theft and obnoxious behavior to peeking in at the local bathhouse.
He has a change of heart (but not name) and start dedicating his life to doing Good. Caring for the unwashed masses, giving up his former allies to the authorities and helping old ladies to cross the street. You know the works.
His alignment should begin climbing from Evil to Neutral to Good...
Because in the cosmological sense his alignment would weighed in, as the sum of his Good, Neutral and Evil deeds at any given time? or am I wrong?
So I can see how he, in a sense, isn't redeemed because that would require some agent grating that absolution of his former life. But at his death isn't he kind of de facto redeemed since he might have changed his cosmological destination?
That component has no value, so there are an infinite amount of them in a component pouch.Nonsense Healing
Components: V, S, M (A printed forum thread over 300 posts long)
Grants fast healing 1, may make characters say and do weird things that may or may not result in alignment related schisms.
Somebody is unfamiliar with the price of ink.
As a bit of fun, I did a brief lookaround for outsiders that exist as fallen/redeemed forms of another or explicitely mention that along the way.
Peri (mention feeling guilt over fallen celestial ancestors)
Erinyes (typically made from good outsiders who strayed from good)
Asmodeus (previously a celestial)
Sahkil (previously psychopomps who decided to quit)
Oni (can potentially form from fallen Kami)
The Redemption Engine (forced redemption yielded fallen angels)
Shamira (heavily implied to be an ex-celestial or directly tied to Sarenrae)Obviously not a lot of redeemed stuff in there, but that should give some concrete examples of outsiders who acted outside their purview of their own volition (irrefutably so for some like Sahkil)
Nocticula: rumored to be seeking both redemption and divinity.
*If we are going to keep tossing Succubi into random threads, might as well go for the first succubi.
The entire point of this exercise was to find outsiders that could act outside the alignment stamp in their stat block (Which is not possible according to JJ's post). Examples given show that it is looking at the crop of fallen outsiders that exist (you can throw the first crop of Divs to that list as well). I have very minimal idea what you're arguing at this point since my entire point is predicated on "Aligned outsiders can behave outside their alignment" to which you...agree. Congrats I guess.*pinches nose*
JJ did not say that. At all. He said their alignments are preset. That's a bit different than "not possible to change".
Divs are corrupted genies (also not aligned outsiders) btw.
I'm arguing with you pointing to JJ's post saying aligned outsiders have preset alignments and decisions and you taking that to mean that they can't ever change or act outside their alignment. They can. He never said they couldn't.
Here's the important part of JJ's quote again
Alignment is reactionary and not the cause of actions and decisions. UNLESS YOU ARE A NON-NATIVE OUTSIDER, in which case it's reversed.
So in other words, alignment is the cause of actions and decisions if you happen to be a non-native outsider (Noting that subtype does not factor into this at all).
Meaning that LG, CN, and yes, even generic N are what dictate every action and decision you make as a non-native outsider. By that logic, they cannot act outside that rubber stamp because decisions and actions are always filtered through the alignment stamp in the bestiary meaning a LG angel cannot do Chaotic or Evil acts because their essence as Lawful and Good would stop that at the gate. So if they actually can act outside their alignment (and they can, I don't think this is debatable any more) then clearly JJ either isn't correct or something got lost in translation along the way because if my alignment is the SOURCE of all my decisions and actions, alignment is quite...
The rules for falling angels and rising demons are covered in The Wrath of the Righteous AP.
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The entire point of this exercise was to find outsiders that could act outside the alignment stamp in their stat block (Which is not possible according to JJ's post). Examples given show that it is looking at the crop of fallen outsiders that exist (you can throw the first crop of Divs to that list as well). I have very minimal idea what you're arguing at this point since my entire point is predicated on "Aligned outsiders can behave outside their alignment" to which you...agree. Congrats I guess.*pinches nose*
JJ did not say that. At all. He said their alignments are preset. That's a bit different than "not possible to change".
Divs are corrupted genies (also not aligned outsiders) btw.
I'm arguing with you pointing to JJ's post saying aligned outsiders have preset alignments and decisions and you taking that to mean that they can't ever change or act outside their alignment. They can. He never said they couldn't.
Here's the important part of JJ's quote again
Alignment is reactionary and not the cause of actions and decisions. UNLESS YOU ARE A NON-NATIVE OUTSIDER, in which case it's reversed.
So in other words, alignment is the cause of actions and decisions if you happen to be a non-native outsider (Noting that subtype does not factor into this at all).
Meaning that LG, CN, and yes, even generic N are what dictate every action and decision you make as a non-native outsider. By that logic, they cannot act outside that rubber stamp because decisions and actions are always filtered through the alignment stamp in the bestiary meaning a LG angel cannot do Chaotic or Evil acts because their essence as Lawful and Good would stop that at the gate. So if they actually can act outside their alignment (and they can, I don't think this is debatable any more) then clearly JJ either isn't correct or something got lost in translation along the way because if my alignment is the SOURCE of all my decisions and actions, alignment is quite...
Like most things, It helps if you don't be pedantic.
A CE Babau Demon's alignment, actions, and decisions are preset on account of it being a Babau Demon. Like most if not all non-Native Outsiders, their actions, decisions, and mindset are preset based on exactly what type of Outsider they are. JJ was saying that when he said it was reversed. Mortals alignment is determined by their actions. Outsiders are determined by their alignment because they come premade.
He did not, I repeat, he did not say that can't act outside their alignment.
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No, no it is not.
A Babau is not mindless, and does have some amount of free will, less than a mortal, but they still have it. A Babau will always begin as a murderer and a sadist because that's how they are formed. But there is absolutely nothing that says they can't act outside their alignment.
The books don't say anything like that.
JJ didn't say anything like that.
The "how this is actually run on the vast majority of tables" standard resolves the "actions due to or in cause of alignment" question.
A Babau is going to act in a chaotic evil fashion because it is a Babau demon, unless the GM needs that particular demon to be a character, and in that case it is a character that essentially has free will and will act however the GM wants it to act.
The question regarding Demons is do you need them to be characters, or simply obstacles/foils? If it's just something the PCs have to fight to get to the next room, it doesn't really matter what they think about guarding the room.
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Like most things, It helps if you don't be pedantic.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue you a citation for spreading falsehoods, citizen.
Like most things, It helps if you don't be pedantic.I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue you a citation for spreading falsehoods, citizen.
You can't get away from Batman that easy
Good grammar is essential, Robin.
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Except he doesn't say that.
A CE Outsider does CE things because it's a CE Outsider, but absolutely nowhere had it been stated that they can't do non-CE actions. Nowhere does it say they can't commit Lawful acts. Absolutely nowhere. They are not mindless automatons.
And again, JJ has not said anything that contradicts this.
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If that was the case, then why was the quote presented as developer proof that outsiders can't act outside their alignment? Either that was the intention of the quote or the poster (and virtually everyone I've privately asked about the quote) have it wrong.Except he doesn't say that.
A CE Outsider does CE things because it's a CE Outsider, but absolutely nowhere had it been stated that they can't do non-CE actions. Nowhere does it say they can't commit Lawful acts. Absolutely nowhere. They are not mindless automatons.
And again, JJ has not said anything that contradicts this.
*blink*
*blink*
What?
What someone else tried to use it as is irrelevant, the quote does not mean nor say Outsiders don't have free will.
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If that was the case, then why was the quote presented as developer proof that outsiders can't act outside their alignment? Either that was the intention of the quote or the poster (and virtually everyone I've privately asked about the quote) have it wrong.Except he doesn't say that.
A CE Outsider does CE things because it's a CE Outsider, but absolutely nowhere had it been stated that they can't do non-CE actions. Nowhere does it say they can't commit Lawful acts. Absolutely nowhere. They are not mindless automatons.
And again, JJ has not said anything that contradicts this.
*blink*
*blink*
What?
What someone else tried to use it as is irrelevant, the quote does not mean nor say Outsiders don't have free will.
"James,
Recently there has been some heated debate on the nature of alignment that has fallen into fighting between two general factions.
The first faction states that, since mechanically Pathfinder designed alignment to be completely descriptive then someone getting their alignment changed against their will (via an undead template, or via a cursed item other than the helm of alignment change) is under no obligation, what so ever, to roleplay the new alignment and can simply act the same way they always have and their alignment will return to their normal alignment over time anyway. Basically inferring that an alignment change has little impact on a character aside from potential class conflicts and/or interactions with certain magical items and such.
The second faction states that, if an alignment change forcibly occurs that it represents some kind of psychological change on the character. Thus they would indeed act differently and thus, effectively, ignoring the alignment until it goes away isn't a valid tactic.
What is your opinion on the subject?
If a PC is changed into an undead and their alignment changes to evil, are they actually evil, would they act differently, or is it simply to grant them a temporary vulnerability?
"
"There's nothing recent about alignment being the subject of a heated debate on the internet, and nothing I can say will end that debate.
That said, my opinion (which as Creative Director of Paizo is what strongly sets the in-print philosophy of books we publish for Pathfinder) is that alignment is a result, not a cause of actions. Alignment is reactionary and not the cause of actions and decisions. UNLESS YOU ARE A NON-NATIVE OUTSIDER, in which case it's reversed. In the case of fey and undead, things are in a weird middle zone between the two.
If a PC is changed into undead, and their alignment becomes evil, they act evil. If they weren't evil in life, they now act differently. Becoming undead is not something that someone who wants to retain a non-evil personality should ever want."
His reply is simply this... in general your alignment is only a consequence of your actions. It does not affect your actions, only your actions affect alignment.
He then goes on to say, specifically, that outsiders, undead and fey differ from this rule.
Non-native outsiders', he says, alignments and actions have a reversed relationship. So, if your actions inform your alignment normally and are a one way street... then the reverse of that is, for outsiders, the alignment informs the actions and are a one way street.
Fey and undead have a weird middle zone... which he does not explain fully.
So, while I do have to agree it's possible he may have meant what you say. Especially given the existence of redeemed and corrupted outsiders in Pathfinder. But, he certainly doesn't say that by word. His words clearly say that alignment sets the decisions for non-native outsiders and not the other way around.
It is important to remember that this is not actually official, though. And JJ often responds the way he would run things in his personal games in his ask anything thread. (Not putting the information down... just stating a fact. The parts that exist as RAW in the books are RAW. But the parts that are not are possible RAI but not RAW.) He specifically says it is his opinion.
*blink*
*blink*
What?
What someone else tried to use it as is irrelevant, the quote does not mean nor say Outsiders don't have free will.
I dunno, the more people I pass this around to, the more responses I get that agree with the assessment that Outsider actions/decisions are straitjacketed by their alignment since they, like me, find it hard to reconcile that when alignment is declared to be the source of your decisions/actions you can just act directly against it.
Regardless, at this point this topic's resembling a vaguely horse shaped pile of meat and bone. Someone pick some other pedantic thing to argue, like the best ways to milk blood from lemures or something.
Eh - At this point I figure it would be wise to point out a few things:
1 - JJ doesn't list official anything in his thread - he takes great pains to mention that his word is non-official and even gets upset when people try to use his words as 'see JJ said' in arguments. He doesn't answer questions for people to use against others - rather he answers them because he hopes that it helps you run a cooler game.
2 - JJ did the work on the official adventure path 'Wrath of the Righteous' which contradicts what you are trying to say - by allowing native outsiders to act with free will. Regardless of how his post 'reads' to you - the adventure was written after it - and thus 'officially' in Pathfinder (and the official world from Paizo) Outsiders have free will and can break the chains of alignment. I'm pretty sure the entire idea is meant to be very rare - but it happens.
3 - Opinions on subjective topics don't become stronger because more people agree on them. Especially when the subject is interpreting words of someone else - who has explicitly said they aren't a rule guy and to not use responses on his thread in rules discussions.
Somebody is unfamiliar with the price of ink.That component has no value, so there are an infinite amount of them in a component pouch.Nonsense Healing
Components: V, S, M (A printed forum thread over 300 posts long)
Grants fast healing 1, may make characters say and do weird things that may or may not result in alignment related schisms.
Addendum: The ink has to be made of ground up clubbed baby seals.
Addendum: The ink has to be made of ground up clubbed baby seals.Somebody is unfamiliar with the price of ink.That component has no value, so there are an infinite amount of them in a component pouch.Nonsense Healing
Components: V, S, M (A printed forum thread over 300 posts long)
Grants fast healing 1, may make characters say and do weird things that may or may not result in alignment related schisms.
Additional Addendum: The baby seals had to have Infernal Healing cast on them before they were clubbed.
It would be humane otherwise.
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Eh - At this point I figure it would be wise to point out a few things:
1 - JJ doesn't list official anything in his thread - he takes great pains to mention that his word is non-official and even gets upset when people try to use his words as 'see JJ said' in arguments. He doesn't answer questions for people to use against others - rather he answers them because he hopes that it helps you run a cooler game.
2 - JJ did the work on the official adventure path 'Wrath of the Righteous' which contradicts what you are trying to say - by allowing native outsiders to act with free will. Regardless of how his post 'reads' to you - the adventure was written after it - and thus 'officially' in Pathfinder (and the official world from Paizo) Outsiders have free will and can break the chains of alignment. I'm pretty sure the entire idea is meant to be very rare - but it happens.
3 - Opinions on subjective topics don't become stronger because more people agree on them. Especially when the subject is interpreting words of someone else - who has explicitly said they aren't a rule guy and to not use responses on his thread in rules discussions.
For the record, I'm not the guy who's using the quote as a cudgel to mean outsiders are straitjacketed to their alignment (see prior, all my quotes that outsiders being unable to act outside their alignment as hogwash).
I'm not a guy you need to convince whether by using setting details or that JJ is indeed not a rule guy.
Then why have you been arguing that?
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Then why have you been arguing that?I argued what JJ meant with his quote. You had a different impression of what it meant which is contrary to what people such was Walsh and myself interpreted it as. While Walsh used it as a means of confirming that outsiders are straitjacketed, my stance was that while yes JJ's quote says as much, that stance is contradicted in many, many places (such as the list of fallen outsiders I provided).
Note the difference.
Well that interpretation is wrong. As Ckorik pointed out, JJ worked on Wrath of the Righteous, including making the in the process of redemption Succubus Arushalae.
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"looking at the number of people in this thread alone who interpret it as "outsiders are straitjacketed""
... one person suggested that. One.
I honestly don't know why you're arguing about at this point. One person misinterpreted a post. One. Not "a number of people". One. One person misinterpreting something doesn't make that misinterpretation true.
And the Redemption ruled (and redeemed Succubus) that JJ made are relevant at hand since it rather blatantly shows outsiders can act outside their alignment and that the Creative Director agrees with that option, otherwise he probably wouldn't have wrote that, adding more credence to the whole "someone misinterpreted that post".
I am honestly confused why you are trying to defend a misinterpretation you yourself don't agree with.
Forced alignment change is mind control.
I would say, that from this we can also assume:
Beings that were born out of aligned forces were "mind controlled" to be like that from the beginning. Outsiders are not born "blank" like Insiders. Not neutral, but "lack of alignment". And then they shape their alignment with their actions.
But Outsider is not born with lack of alignment, so it begins with biased position. And then it can go somewhere depending on circumstances. And you can even be aligned to Neutral. While the lack of alignment might just be apathy or beastial mind, there is also having a lot of Neutral alignment. Pharasma does not lack attitude so to say.
This is what I was able to get out of this whole subtopic.
I don't think "you were born in hell so you're lawful evil" is really mind control so much as enculturation. Baby devils grow up in the culture established by their elders and internalize certain notions regarding hierarchy and selfishness which they perceive, absent contradictory information, as "normal" and "just the way things are."
This is not to say that they cannot break this cultural programming, but they are unlikely to do so unless exposed to contradictory notions from other cultural contexts, and even so it is a difficult process, but it's certainly not impossible, particularly if the GM or one of the writers wants to tell a story about hard-won redemption.
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I think the important thing to take away from this discussion where the concept of redemption/sin and whether or not Outsiders can act outside their alignment is that they can if the story requires it.
Its that plan and simple. JJ has frequently been asked questions about something that would typically be contrary to the standard rules and he has said if it something you want for your own game, sure go for it.
Paizo has obviously created characters that are one off "snowflakes" as it were that stand out from the rest of the crowd of outsiders, and that is IMHO great. Basically adventure happens when someone acts unexpectedly.
When rules are created to make a system that's neat. Sometimes it creates ideas that spark stories, but I bet that if someone has an great idea for a story or a character and it looks like it might bend or break the rules that its not going to stop them.
Outsiders are what they are because they're formed of the soul stuff Pharasma sorts and sends to the appropriate planes.
They're LG because they were LG in life and thats the mark that was left on their soul when they died and went to heaven, or they were LE and the soulstuff that made up their spirit went to the nine hells where it eventually formed a dretch or lemure or whichever one is the devil and not demon.
The whole Pathfinder multiverse is basically pharasma operating the soulstuff pipelines to various planes where they form into the plane's physical reality and/or inhabitants. They're that alignment because they're made of people who were that alignment in life that spent time having that alignment reinforced into them after death before forming a creature who is treated to a society that also reinforces that alignment.
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ENTIRE CONVERSATION AM MAKING BARBARIAN BRAIN HURT.
WHAT AM DC TO SUNDER ALIGNMENT? CHAOTIC AND LAWFUL AM WAY SIMPLER THAN GOOD-EVIL DEBATE, AND IF SUNDERED THEN DELICATE AXIOM OF BALANCING GOOD AND EVIL AM NOT EVEN ISSUE. MAYBE EVEN SUNDER BOTH HALVES, BE ALIGNMENT. AM TRUE SMASH, THEREFORE AM BEST ALIGNMENT. NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BLASPHEMY OR DICTUM OR ANY OTHER CLERIC SPELLS, NOT EVEN BOTHER ROLL DIE ANYMORE.
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"looking at the number of people in this thread alone who interpret it as "outsiders are straitjacketed""
... one person suggested that. One.
I honestly don't know why you're arguing about at this point. One person misinterpreted a post. One. Not "a number of people". One. One person misinterpreting something doesn't make that misinterpretation true.
And the Redemption ruled (and redeemed Succubus) that JJ made are relevant at hand since it rather blatantly shows outsiders can act outside their alignment and that the Creative Director agrees with that option, otherwise he probably wouldn't have wrote that, adding more credence to the whole "someone misinterpreted that post".
I am honestly confused why you are trying to defend a misinterpretation you yourself don't agree with.
@Rysky
You are the one misinterpreting an easy to understand post. Sorry, but it is true.JJ said that non-native outsiders alignment and actions have a reverse relationship compared to, say, humanoids. Since his definition(in the same post) of the normal rule is that actions dictate alignment and not the other way around... the reverse of that is that alignment dictates actions for non-native outsiders. This means either, his opinion is different from the rules or he explained his stance extremely poorly. Either way, facts are facts. And fact is, that post can not be read in the manner which you suggest. By definition of the english words used in the manner used it literally can not mean what you say it must mean.
@Tarik
You already agree on the basics of the argument and only disagree on what english words are defined as when in a certain order as written by one guy long ago. It's probably best to drop the argument, then, as the opinion you are currently arguing over is just opinion and no matter who is right about it, it does not change the rules one tiny bit.