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Hey everyone,
I'm planning on playing a wildshaping melee druid in an upcoming campaign. I know that summoner druids are generally stronger, but I like the wildshaping one more from a role-playing perspective. I'm not entirely sure what would be a good build for one though, so I was hoping to get some advice from you guys. Below is a sample build I've been working on for level 7 (we're going to be doing a one shot in the near future to test our characters, and that will be held at level 7, just in case the level seemed rather random). I have listed the feats I plan on taking even after level 7 and all ability score increases from level 8 onwards will go in Strength.
Human Menhir Savant Druid 6 / Flowing Monk 1
N medium humanoid (human)
Init +3
Defense
AC: 16, touch 16, flat-footed 15 (+1 Dex, +4 Wis, +1 Deflection)
HP: 58 (1d10 + 6d8 + 7 + 7 + 7)
Fortitude +10, Reflex +7, Will +11
Offense
Melee: +1 scimitar +11 (1d6+8/18-20/x2)
Spells
0th (4/day) Detect Magic, Create Water, Light, Guidance
1st (4/day) Longstrider, Faerie Fire, Entangle, Bristle
2nd (4/day) Barkskin, Eagle Eye, Warp Wood, Cat's Grace
3rd (3/day) Greater Magic Fang (2), Aqueous Orb
Stats
STR 20, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 18, CHA 7 (+2 STR racial, +1 WIS at level 4; +2 STR, +2 WIS due to equipment)
BAB +5, CMB +10, CMD 25
Abilities: Nature Bond, Spirit Sense, Place Magic (7/day), Wild shape (2/day)
Traits: Reactive, Eye for Talent
Skills: Perception (+14), Sense Motive (+10), Swim (+9), Acrobatics (+5), Climb (+9), Fly (+5), Stealth (+7), Handle Animal (+4), Survival (+10), Knowledge (nature) (+7)
Feats: Monk) Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk) Stunning Fist, Monk 1) Improved Trip, Human) Dirty Fighting, 1) Power Attack, 3) Toughness, 5) Natural Spell, 7) Improved Natural Attack, 9) Greater Grapple, 11) Vital Strike, 13) Extend Spell, 15 Improved Vital Strike
Gear: Belt of Giant Strength (+2), Headband of Inspired Wisdom (+2), Ring of Protection (+1), +1 scimitar, Cloak of Resistance (+2), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (50 charges)
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So basically the idea here is to use Wild Shape and do melee combat. If necessary I can still cast spells as well, so shaping into a flying creature and casting spells from mid air is also still a possibility, but melee is where I want the focus to be. I took 1 level in Monk so that I get Wis to AC and CMD, which really helps while I'm in my beast form. I think the Wild enchantment is just too expensive to be worth it, and this way I still get a +6 bonus through my Wis stat when I get the headband that gives +6 Wis.
I plan on casting stuff like Barkskin, Cat's Grace and Longstrider on myself to keep myself buffed and increase my AC. At higher levels I will have the Animal Growth spell and all the higher level feats (Vital Strike chain mainly) to massively increase damage for things like the Hippo. Other than that I expect I'll still be summoning some creatures, but again, I just don't want it to be the focus.
Thanks to the Monk dip I get Improved Grapply as a bonus feat as well at first level, alongside Dirty Fighting through my Human race, meaning I'll be able to grapple pretty reliably even at lower levels. Losing 1 level of spellcasting isn't that big of a deal since I'm a Menhir Savant druid and I can thus use Place Magic to increase my caster level by 1 and have it be the same as my character level again.
I would really appreciate any advice, mainly regarding the feats I've selected, my stat line and higher level equipment. Tips for my animal companion are also more than welcome!
I played a Monk/Druid back in 3.5 and another early on in Pathfinder. I like this combination, but you'll need Improved Grapple before you can take Greater Grapple. Grapple is a pretty good combat maneuver for a wild shaping Druid since you can get a +4 on your CMB from Grab and another +1 or +2 from size bonuses.
Your AC with the Monk's Wisdom bonus won't be as high as with Wild armor, but you save a few feats on your way to Greater Grapple. I'm not sure why you bothered with Dirty Fighting unless you meant to pick up Greater Trip instead of Greater Grapple. I just noticed maybe it is because your Dex is too low for Improved Grapple, but if you lower your Wisdom (or Str) just a little maybe you could afford more Dex (and maybe more Con to help free up the feat you spent on Toughness)
Grappling will probably work out better than Tripping overall since fewer monsters are immune to it and the shapes which provide Grab are often better than the ones which provide Trip. For animal companions the big cat is very effective, and the Roc seems pretty good too. I personally enjoyed having a Medium companion (hyena) since it was easier to get into flanking positions.
Assuming you'll be fighting mostly in wildshape you might be better off with a +1 amulet of mighty fists than a +1 scimitar. Sure, you can cast GMF, but you could also save those spell slots for other stuff. My own PF Monk/Druid took Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning and found Summon Nature's Ally quite useful even though he was a level behind as a caster. You could use other spells if you'd prefer.
Menhir savant seems solid but was there a particular reason you didn't go for goliath druid? Actual size increases are one of the better ways to up the damage capabilities of unarmed strike and boost those maneuvers. It'l let you keep access to your gear as well.
Consider getting Dragon style so that you can charge through friends and difficult terrain. Very useful for critters with pounce.
Improved Natural Attack only improves one natural attack, so you have to specify which type, usually claw or bite.
Vital Strike generally will give you less damage output than multiple attacks.
Your Hippo will be +11(8d6+11) [+9(8d6+17) with PA] using Vital Strike. Average damage vs AC 20: 23.4 (22.5 PA)
Compare this to a pouncing dire tiger. bite +13(2d6+8), 4xclaw +13(2d4+8) [bite +11(2d6+12), 4xclaw +11(2d4+12) with PA]. Average damage vs AC 20: 46.9 (52.2 PA) I did not include INA in the tiger's damage. Also the tiger has grab on the bite and 2 claw attacks (not on the rakes).
Officially you cannot take archetypes with the Unchained Monk unless the archetype specifically says so. Without the GM houseruling it you cannot have a Flowing Monk archetype unless you go to the CRB Monk.
You cannot take Greater Grapple without Improved Grapple. You took Improved Trip as your Monk feat, unless that is a typo.
Dirty Fighting does nothing for you unless you have a flank. If you can reliably get a flank it would be awesome with a critter that has the trip or grab abilities. If not then it is a waste of a feat.
Eye for Talent is not a trait, it is a racial trait. These are not the same thing at all. To get Eye for Talent you trade away your human bonus feat.
I would not bother with a +1 scimitar. With GMF up your unarmed strikes are magical for when you are in human form. The scimitar is useless in animal form, which is where you plan to spend most of your time. Consider getting an Rod of Extend, lesser to double the duration of 3 of your buff spells.
Consider a way to get Mage Armor cast on you. Another +4 to AC can never hurt.
Flowing Monk can only use their signature ability once/day at level 1. I'd use Unchained Monk if possible.
Are you set on going animal form, or are you potentially interested in elemental shapes? A big elemental swinging a weapon in two hands is a riot.
You can actually make a very interesting and powerful non-shaping melee Urban Druid as well, if that interests you; Druid spells and Divine Favor on a big, armored war-Druid with weapons.
Thanks for all the feedback. The Flowing Monk was an old thing I forgot to remove, I've since updated my original post accordingly. Improved Trip was indeed supposed to be Improved Grapple (which removes the need for the Flowing Monk). The reason I took Dirty Fighting was indeed because I couldn't get to the 13 Dex. I could drop Wis a bit, but I really want to keep it at its current stat because of how it synergizes with the Monk's Wis to AC ability and by starting out with 16 I can eventually get up to 22 with maximized headbands, giving me an additional Level 2 Spell to use each day. And I plan on using a lot of those.
I did not go for the Goliath Druid mostly because of thematic reasons, but thank you for the suggestion nonetheless. I might have another look at it :)
What are some alternative feat chains that would work well for this character aside from the Vital Strike one? If I focus mainly on grappling, it would perhaps be beneficial to not focus on animals with just 1 attack, but those with multiple. And in those cases the Vital Strike chain won't provide as much given that the number of base dice will almost always be lower. Foregoing Vital Strike also leaves more options open, because if I do take it I might feel like I always need to transform in a Hippo...
So yeah, any advice regarding alternative feat chain?
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A few things to consider. With point buys you get more AC by increasing 2 stats moderately than one stat a lot. A 16 in Wis costs 10 points netting 3 AC. The same 10 can get you 14 in wis and dex netting you 4 AC. If AC is a concern play with your point buy. I would also bump that Con and consider keeping toughness.
As far as getting an extra spell from wisdom. If you use your increase caster level ability, anointing oil and a rod of extend what should give you better results than one extra slot and this strategy can be used on 1st, 2nd or 3rd level spells. You can also just buy a pearl of power $4000.
I like pummelling style, when I can't get past DR I can cluster a flurry of unarmed strikes to do decent damage.
With a high wisdom like yours Panther Claw can be hilarious. It will only work once per fight on opponents that are smart but that is enough.
I will second Dragon Style if you're a pouncer.
I understand the logic behind splitting points between Dex and Wis for AC, but I'd rather boost Wis some more because it has better synergy with the rest of my build. I have updated by 15 point buy to be as follows now, following some of the advice from this thread:
STR 18, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 15, CHA 7
Where I took the human alternate racial trait that lets you put +2 in two ability scores of your choice in exchange for the bonus feat and the extra skill rank each level. That way I can get the 13 Dex required for stuff like Greater Grapple, have 14 Con + Toughness for a ton of HP, and still get my 18 Wis and 20 Str at level 7, items included.
I just realized though that even if I take 13 Dex and Greater Grapple as a feat, I can't actually use that feat in animal form as soon as I transform into an animal that is size Large or larger, since then I get the Dex penalty and no longer qualify for the feat. So yeah, that makes me rethink that entire feat line as well to be honest...
Pearls of Power are a good idea too, I hadn't thought of that. I should be able to buy some of them given that I can save some money since I don't have to buy armor.
Flowing Monk can only use their signature ability once/day at level 1. I'd use Unchained Monk if possible.
Are you set on going animal form, or are you potentially interested in elemental shapes? A big elemental swinging a weapon in two hands is a riot.
You can actually make a very interesting and powerful non-shaping melee Urban Druid as well, if that interests you; Druid spells and Divine Favor on a big, armored war-Druid with weapons.
I'm not set on going animal form only; obviously I'd start that way, but I do want to progress into elemental forms at some point as well :-) They sound really fun and I think it would make sense for my character to progress in that direction from a narrative standpoint. If I do go that way, is a scimitar still a good enough weapon do you think, or are there other better options?
One melee Druid trick I've looked at was using Magical Lineage on the spell Thunderstomp to make Quickened Thunderstomp a level 4 spell. Since you can use Caster Level as BAB and still use Strength for CMB, a big animal form will produce a really powerful swift action trip that way; eventually tripping feats will grant an AoO, so you can knock down and trample with a swift action.
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If you go UnMonk most people two-hand Temple Swords or Sansetsukon. You can put size changing on it for 4000gp. You have to put the weapon down and when you change which has been stated.
Benefits:
- Special material for dr/hardness
- Can flurry with the monk weapons
- You can start using them with wild shape immediately with primate forms
- 1.5 Str to damage
I'm not set on going animal form only; obviously I'd start that way, but I do want to progress into elemental forms at some point as well :-) They sound really fun and I think it would make sense for my character to progress in that direction from a narrative standpoint. If I do go that way, is a scimitar still a good enough weapon do you think, or are there other better options?
Scimitar is a perfectly good weapon, but if you're a Druid/Monk you can always flurry a Monk weapon. Or if you're going for brutal strength damage on an earth elemental, a big two-hander would seem appropriate (and would benefit most from increased size). With the right Domain, Druid/Monk can also qualify for Crusader's Flurry, which then opens up lots of weapon options.
I really like air elemental as a theme, so I've looked at things like an Elven Druid/Barbarian wielding an elven curved blade as an air elemental with finesse.
Thanks again for all the feedback guys, really helpful! Quickened Thunderstomp sounds awesome! The Sansetsukon sounds perfect for what I want: better base damage than the scimitar and I can flurry with it like you said, totally overlooked that. Forgive the silly question (I'm still a beginner I'm afraid), but what's the benefit of having the weapon change shape and appearance? Is it necessary before it can be wielded by, say, a large earth elemental? Or will it increase the damage? I assume you're talking about the Glamered enchantment by the way.
Also, do you know for sure that primates are able to wield it? I couldn't find a source that said so, so if you have one, I'd love to read it. It sounds great!
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Size changing allows you to use the same weapon at any size without penalty. You could at level 6 get a large weapon and stick to large creatures but sometimes medium is better for tight dungeons. There may also be times later when you want to be a huge creature. With size changing you can use one weapon with all its enhancements without penalties to attack for the weapon not being the incorrect size.
For primates there is two schools of thought. You have hands and nothing in polymorph school says you can't use weapons if you have the body type to do it. *see Magic Item Slots for Animals
"Some creature body types are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, though they may not be able to use such items effectively (GM's discretion) and take penalties for nonproficiency as usual. These are indicated by "Yes" in the "Grasp/Carry" column in the table below."
There is a ruling that says that animal companions can't use weapons because they prefer their natural attacks. Some people take that to mean no animal form can use weapons (except for elephants and tusk blades). I see this as an over generalisation of specific ruling but that is only my opinion.
Either way is would be good to clear up with your GM first.
A couple interesting options to consider as well -
If you're allowed to use the Effortless Lace item, you could always create a DEX-based Druid that uses air or fire elemental form with Weapon Finesse and Slashing Grace on a temple sword (Effortless Lace makes it count as a light weapon). Air and fire elemental grant big DEX bonuses, and fire elemental grants a bonus fire roll to all melee strikes as well.
A Druid that worships Gorum for whatever reason (chaos and conflict in nature?) can take the Anger Inquisition, which grants access to Rage by level 6 (and you can always take Extra Rage to augment this). Rage and a Furious weapon is always a big boost to combat power. Of course, you can't take a level of Monk if you're not lawful... unless it's a level of Martial Artist Monk.
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Other relevant texts
Blog Post - Monkey See, Monkey Do? An FAQ on Intelligent Animals
Another aspect of intelligent animals is tool use. There are a number of feats that convey an understanding and the proper use of weapons and armor. Generally speaking, these feats are off-limits to animals, but when their intelligence reaches 3, the rules state that they can use any feat that they are physically capable of using. Some people take this to mean that they can equip their animal companion in chainmail and arm him with a greatsword given the correct feats. While you could interpret the rules in this way, the "capable of use" clause is very important. Most weapons require thumbs to use properly, and even then, few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that. In the end, the GM should feel free to restrict such choices if he feels that they take away from the feel of his campaign. The rules themselves are left a little vague to give the GM the latitude to make the call that's right for his campaign.
PFS faq
Can I improve my companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher and give it weapon feats?
No. An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons or tools, speak a language (though they may understand one with a rank in Linguistics; this does not grant literacy), or activate magic devices. Also note that raising an animal companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher does not eliminate the need to make Handle Animal checks to direct its actions; even semi-intelligent animals still act like animals unless trained not to. An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.
Intelligence and thumbs are the stick points for these 2 ruling a druid in ape form should be fine but yymv.
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Here is a druid wildshape build that I am doing in PFS. He is currently level 6.
Druid 4 (Menhir Savant)/ Brawler 1 (Strangler)/ Unchained Monk 1/ Druid 4 (Menhir Savant)/ barbarian 1/ Druid 9.
The idea is to use Feral Combat Training with the bite of an Behemoth Hippopotamus with Strong Jaw. If you can use a full attack then you use flurry of blows with the 8d8 damage.
If you cannot full attack you instead walk up to them and use Vital Strike and Furious Finish to deal 128 plus 1.5 strength damage.
Something I have added to the build that I have not seen before is taking Brawler (Strangler*) and the Crocodile domain for a bit of Sneak attack (combine this with Accomplished Sneak attacker for more dice).
Strangler*. This allow us to deal sneak when you deal damage through grapple. And you the buy an Anaconda's coils to get Constrict. This means that when you grapple someone with Grab you then deal constrict + sneak attack damage as well.
Let's not forget Feral Combat Training.
Aside from a Flurry of Blows with Claw attacks, your claws (or whatever other natural attack you choose) could benefit from martial arts styles or ANY feat that has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Kung Fu Tiger!
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One very interesting option for a weapon-wielding Monk/Druid is to take Ascetic Form, since Ascetic Form and the Monk Unarmed Strike class ability means that the Ascetic Style weapon can be treated as a natural weapon for all spells. Like Strong Jaw and Rime Frostbite...
A typical Monk1/Druid8 sized as a medium elemental can wield a large sansetsukon for 4d8 base damage with Strong Jaw, and add 3d6+4 with Rime Spell. They can easily be doing upwards of 40 average damage per hit - while Rime Frostbite also inflicts entangled and fatigued.
Ascetic Form also means that they get character level/day uses of Stunning Fist, and any other similar feat they take like Punishing Kick... and those feats can be used with their Ascetic weapon.
With the right Domain, Druid/Monk can also qualify for Crusader's Flurry, which then opens up lots of weapon options.how?
need Channel energy class feature
The Arctic and Swamp Domains both grant a special Channel Energy ability, which opens up both Crusader's Flurry and Guided Hand for Druid.
I think I see a problem with part of what you are proposing. Strong Jaw only works on Natural Weapons, and that would not include a Sansetsukon. Are you saying that the Monk Unarmed Strike ability to be treated as either Natural or Manufactured Weapons gets transferred to the weapon via the Ascetic Style Feats? To my experience, using that clause as a class ability is unpopular. You should expect to be bullied.
There's controversy over what the Ascetic Style feat lets you do, and the creator of the feat is on record saying that the first feat in the chain should only affect the same things that Feral Combat Training does.
However, I'm talking about taking Ascetic Form as well, which is totally clear:
"You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike"
Monk Unarmed Strike is very, very clearly a 'class ability' that allows unarmed strikes to be treated as natural weapons for spell purposes; I'm not sure where someone would find any ground to argue otherwise, and I haven't seen that come up myself. Naturally a GM can houserule it, but that's a different issue.
Monk Unarmed Strike is very, very clearly a 'class ability' that allows unarmed strikes to be treated as natural weapons for spell purposes; I'm not sure where someone would find any ground to argue otherwise, and I haven't seen that come up myself. Naturally a GM can houserule it, but that's a different issue.
if the menu lets you order any side dish that comes with a steak, i don't think that includes "another steak"
Monk Unarmed Strike is very, very clearly a 'class ability' that allows unarmed strikes to be treated as natural weapons for spell purposes; I'm not sure where someone would find any ground to argue otherwise, and I haven't seen that come up myself. Naturally a GM can houserule it, but that's a different issue.
if the menu lets you order any side dish that comes with a steak, i don't think that includes "another steak"
I don't see how that counters anything he said.
I don't see how that counters anything he said.
I'm not entirely sure the combo works but i'm not entirely sure that it doesn't, but unarmed strike is unarmed strike, the ability works on things that work with unarmed strike. It isn't a seperate class feature, feat, or magic item that works with the monks unarmed strike.
I'm not entirely sure the combo works but i'm not entirely sure that it doesn't, but unarmed strike is unarmed strike, the ability works on things that work with unarmed strike. It isn't a seperate class feature, feat, or magic item that works with the monks unarmed strike.I don't see how that counters anything he said.
The logic does parse pretty cleanly, at least.
1: Per Ascetic Form: "You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike"
2: Monk Unarmed Strike is a class ability used with unarmed strikes.
3: Ergo, it applies.
Now, I'd say the big point of contention is what exactly the feat means by an ability that "can be used" with unarmed strikes. I suspect the intent was more aimed at stuff like Stunning Fist, but the language is ambiguous enough to leave room for interpretation.
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Though it is unclear I would caution against reading "used with an unarmed strike" as "effects unarmed strikes".
Used with sounds a lot more like the active voice not the passive. I would say reading it as "used in conjunction with unarmed strikes" is the most accurate interpretation in context. Ki power, style strike, stunning fist. Going beyond that the language gets dubious.
Just my 2cp though I could very well be wrong. I only speak conversaional paizo. But, they do tend to rule on the conservative side of most ruling as far as I can tell
The logic does parse pretty cleanly, at least.
Every time someone says that i do the dm equivilant of holding onto my wallet.
2: Monk Unarmed Strike is a class ability used with unarmed strikes.
there's a few places that gets iffy. The monks unarmed strike IS the monks unarmed strike. It's not working with it. Steak does come on the stake and side dish, but that does not mean you can have a second steak (sorry overly manly man)
secondly you are not applying the ability to monk unarmed strike class feature you are applying it directly to your unarmed strike: the monk unarmed strike class feature isn't involved in the process at all.
Third (or maybe 2.5)... everything that applies to an unarmed strike is not everything that an unarmed strike applies to: A--->B does not mean that B----A.
there's a few places that gets iffy. The monks unarmed strike IS the monks unarmed strike. It's not working with it. Steak does come on the stake and side dish, but that does not mean you can have a second steak (sorry overly manly man)
Yeah, it's definitely iffy and I would guess probably not the way the writer intended for it to work. It all hinges on how broadly you read "class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike," which is ambiguous enough to create plenty of grey areas.
That said, I'm eating steak tonight with a side of steak, just because you can't tell me I can't.
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Back to the topic at hand. This build may have accuracy problems so know when to not power attack. I would just drop improved natural attack all together. Planar wild shape is good. If you will be unarmed striking a lot monastic legacy is similar but better than improved natural attack.
Consider feral combat training (bite), pummelling style in place of vital strike and one other feat. For huge full attacks.
Hi all,
I have a build in this vein that I thought I should add to the discussion.
Human
1:(Id Rager (Anger)/Urban Bloodrager 1): Improved Initiative
1:(Bloodrager 1) Toughness
2:(Druid 1)
3:(Druid 2) Extra Rage
4:(MoMS/Martial Artist 1): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style
5:(Mutation Warrior 1) Shaping Focus, Weapon Focus (Claw)
6:(Fighter 2) Feral Combat Training (Claw)
7:(Monk 2) Planar Wild Shape, Dragon Ferocity
8:(Druid 3)
9:(Druid 4) Boon Companion
10:(Fighter 3)
11:(Fighter 4) Combat Style Master, Improved Critical (Claw)
12:(Fighter 5)
Idea is simply to maximize Pounce/Rake damage as Dire Tiger. You get Power Attack from Anger, which nicely adds +6 dmg to each of the x1.5 STR Dragon Ferocity hits. The necessity of Swift Action for PWS Smite is a nuisance until Combat Style Master, preventing real nova DPR, but the DPR is very solid beforehand, and gets strong at 11 with all of the Mutagen + Smite + Dragon Ferocity + Improved Critical fun. At 12 you get Weapon Training and add the Gloves. And the Animal Companion is still pretty viable from 9-12.
Saves are solid and AC isn't horrible. Initiative is high. If you feel 12 rounds of rage isn't enough, you can add an Extra Rage in place of Toughness.
there's a few places that gets iffy. The monks unarmed strike IS the monks unarmed strike. It's not working with it. Steak does come on the stake and side dish, but that does not mean you can have a second steak (sorry overly manly man)Yeah, it's definitely iffy and I would guess probably not the way the writer intended for it to work. It all hinges on how broadly you read "class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike," which is ambiguous enough to create plenty of grey areas.
That said, I'm eating steak tonight with a side of steak, just because you can't tell me I can't.
I have to admit, I'm typically pretty understanding of how different interpretations of the rules can arise, but I'm rather surprised anyone finds anything about this 'iffy' or unclear. As I see it;
'Monk Unarmed Strike' is obviously a class ability of the Monk, because it appears along with the other abilities listed for the Monk in the same way any class ability is listed for any class; in point of fact, an unarmed strike made by a Monk has special characteristics specifically because they're using their 'Monk Unarmed Strike' class ability to augment it. Doing extra damage and receiving special properties is the very definition of an "ability". So if a feat says you can apply a class ability that can be applied to an unarmed strike to your weapon, then you can apply Monk Unarmed Strike to your weapon via that feat.
Or to put it in simple logic:
Q: Is "Monk Unarmed Strike" a class ability?
A: It appears in the list of abilities granted to the Monk class, and is, by definition, an "ability". Yes.
Therefore, clause no.1 checks out.
Q: Can you use "Monk Unarmed Strike" with an unarmed strike?
A: Yes.
Therefore, clause no.2 checks out.
Oh well, controversy and Ascetic are together again... what a shock.
Monk Unarmed Strike' is obviously a class ability of the Monk, because it appears along with the other abilities listed for the Monk in the same way any class ability is listed for any class; in point of fact, an unarmed strike made by a Monk has special characteristics specifically because they're using their 'Monk Unarmed Strike' class ability to augment it. Doing extra damage and receiving special properties is the very definition of an "ability". So if a feat says you can apply a class ability that can be applied to an unarmed strike to your weapon, then you can apply Monk Unarmed Strike to your weapon via that feat.
So do you think that a druid should be able to cast strongjaw on the tesubu your character is holding?
Monk Unarmed Strike' is obviously a class ability of the Monk, because it appears along with the other abilities listed for the Monk in the same way any class ability is listed for any class; in point of fact, an unarmed strike made by a Monk has special characteristics specifically because they're using their 'Monk Unarmed Strike' class ability to augment it. Doing extra damage and receiving special properties is the very definition of an "ability". So if a feat says you can apply a class ability that can be applied to an unarmed strike to your weapon, then you can apply Monk Unarmed Strike to your weapon via that feat.So do you think that a druid should be able to cast strongjaw on the tesubu your character is holding?
A Druid doesn't cast Strong Jaw on a weapon, but on a creature; it then affects all natural weapons that creature attacks with. If a character is under the effects of Strong Jaw and has the Monk Unarmed Strike ability, then Monk Unarmed Strike will apply Strong Jaw to their unarmed strikes as well as their natural weapons. If a character has the Monk Unarmed Strike ability and Ascetic Form, then Monk Unarmed Strike will apply Strong Jaw to their natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and Ascetic weapon via Ascetic Form.
On a conceptual level, I like it; Ascetic Style is all about making the weapon a natural extension of one's body, so a spell that makes a creature's body more lethal ripples through their Ascetic weapon as well. Being able to tag things like Vine Strike, Strong Jaw, Bloody Claws and so-on onto a Monk/Druid's sword or staff is absolutely fantastic "Ascetic Monk-Druid" flavor!
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Hi all,
I have a build in this vein that I thought I should add to the discussion.
Human
1:(Id Rager (Anger)/Urban Bloodrager 1): Improved Initiative
1:(Bloodrager 1) Toughness
2:(Druid 1)
3:(Druid 2) Extra Rage
4:(MoMS/Martial Artist 1): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style
5:(Mutation Warrior 1) Shaping Focus, Weapon Focus (Claw)
6:(Fighter 2) Feral Combat Training (Claw)
7:(Monk 2) Planar Wild Shape, Dragon Ferocity
8:(Druid 3)
9:(Druid 4) Boon Companion
10:(Fighter 3)
11:(Fighter 4) Combat Style Master, Improved Critical (Claw)
12:(Fighter 5)Idea is simply to maximize Pounce/Rake damage as Dire Tiger. You get Power Attack from Anger, which nicely adds +6 dmg to each of the x1.5 STR Dragon Ferocity hits. The necessity of Swift Action for PWS Smite is a nuisance until Combat Style Master, preventing real nova DPR, but the DPR is very solid beforehand, and gets strong at 11 with all of the Mutagen + Smite + Dragon Ferocity + Improved Critical fun. At 12 you get Weapon Training and add the Gloves. And the Animal Companion is still pretty viable from 9-12.
Saves are solid and AC isn't horrible. Initiative is high. If you feel 12 rounds of rage isn't enough, you can add an Extra Rage in place of Toughness.
A minor issue with this build. Shaping focus require you to have the wild shape class feature. So you would have to move either the classes around or the feats.
A minor issue with this build. Shaping focus require you to have the wild shape class feature. So you would have to move either the classes around or the feats.Hi all,
I have a build in this vein that I thought I should add to the discussion.
Human
1:(Id Rager (Anger)/Urban Bloodrager 1): Improved Initiative
1:(Bloodrager 1) Toughness
2:(Druid 1)
3:(Druid 2) Extra Rage
4:(MoMS/Martial Artist 1): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style
5:(Mutation Warrior 1) Shaping Focus, Weapon Focus (Claw)
6:(Fighter 2) Feral Combat Training (Claw)
7:(Monk 2) Planar Wild Shape, Dragon Ferocity
8:(Druid 3)
9:(Druid 4) Boon Companion
10:(Fighter 3)
11:(Fighter 4) Combat Style Master, Improved Critical (Claw)
12:(Fighter 5)Idea is simply to maximize Pounce/Rake damage as Dire Tiger. You get Power Attack from Anger, which nicely adds +6 dmg to each of the x1.5 STR Dragon Ferocity hits. The necessity of Swift Action for PWS Smite is a nuisance until Combat Style Master, preventing real nova DPR, but the DPR is very solid beforehand, and gets strong at 11 with all of the Mutagen + Smite + Dragon Ferocity + Improved Critical fun. At 12 you get Weapon Training and add the Gloves. And the Animal Companion is still pretty viable from 9-12.
Saves are solid and AC isn't horrible. Initiative is high. If you feel 12 rounds of rage isn't enough, you can add an Extra Rage in place of Toughness.
@the Diviner: Thank you for noticing that nasty oversight! Your keen eye will save me some serious grief in my glacial-paced RotRL campaign. Here is a revision to the build. Mantis Style is up for debate, and I'd love to hear any other comments. At least getting to Druid 4 first allows Barkskin +3 (with Magical Knack) to make me less squishy. Actually, with Mage Armor as a Dire Tiger at Level 6, the AC will be 25 with a RoP +1, HoIW +2. Not too bad:
1(Druid 1): Improved Initiative
1(Druid 1): Toughness
2:(Id Rager (Anger)/Urban Bloodrager 1) BAB 1
3:(Druid 2) Extra Rage BAB 2
4:(Druid 3) BAB 3
5:(Druid 4) Shaping Focus BAB 4
6:(MoMS/Martial Artist 1): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style BAB 4
7:(Mutation Warrior 1) Weapon Focus: Claw, Feral Combat Training: Claw BAB 5
8:(MoMS 2) Dragon Ferocity BAB 6
9:(Mutation Warrior 2) Planar Wild Shape, Combat Style Master BAB 7
10:(Mutation Warrior 3) BAB 8
11: (Mutation Warrior 4) Improved Critical, Mantis Style BAB 9
12: (Mutation Warrior 5) BAB 10
Also, Planar Wild Shape and Combat Style Master come online at the same time, which makes some sense. Again, I'm not sure if Mantis Style is worth it, as my Stunning Fist DC would still be a pretty meh 21. Other suggestions? Another style feat to take advantage of Combat Style Master and MoMS? I thought perhaps Hamatulatsu could be fun to add on top of Dragon Ferocity.
Thanks muchly.
Martial Artist and Master of Many Styles both replace Perfect Self, so they're not compatible.
If you would potentially be interesting in a rather different kind of polymorphing melee-Druid, there's always the rather unique spell Aspect of the Wolf to build towards - it never gets used by Druids because it won't work with Wild Shape, but for an Urban Druid...
Ulfen Wolf-Spirit Rager
Celestial Urban Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1/ Urban Druid 10
Middle-Aged Human: (16/18)17STR, (10)9DEX, (14)13CON, (9)10INT, (15)16WIS, (7)8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack
Domain: Nobility
Bloodline: Celestial
1UBC. Extra Rage / Heavy Armor / +BC: Improved Trip
2UD.
3UD. Mad Magic
4UD.
5UD. Extra Rage
6UD.
7UD. Dirty Fighting
8UD.
9UD. Greater Trip
10UD.
11UD. Rime Spell
An Urban Druid with the Nobility Domain can cast Divine Favor spontaneously, so they can buff in combat like a battle Cleric does; throw in Controlled Bloodrage from Bloodrager and a Furious weapon, and they've got a massive bonus to attack and damage with any martial weapon (greatsword or greataxe comes to mind). Defensively, Barkskin or Ironskin plus a stoneplate armor provides huge AC; the spell Longstrider compensates for slow movement, so that overall land speed is still 25. Controlled Bloodrage doesn't lower AC or alter CON.
Mad Magic allows casting spells while raging, so throwing a Mudball or using Rime Frigid Touch is no problem in combat if you've started to rage.
At level 8, access to Lesser Age Resistance erases all middle-aged penalties for 24hours with one level 4 spell. Before level 8, the slightly lower stats shouldn't be an issue with all the combat advantages available.
At level 10, the spell Aspect of the Wolf grants the ability to perform a trip attack as a swift action, and this grants a bonus attack with Greater Trip. Between Rage, a Furious weapon, Divine Favor, and Fate's Favored, the CMB of trip attempts is quite strong. Rime Frigid Touch can be used to stagger and entangle a target before tripping, which weakens their trip defense and cripples their actions while they're lying on the floor. A Spell Storing weapon is an option for packing Rime Frigid Touch into a weapon strike.
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@The Other. As BadBird has said you have two archetypes on your monk side that does not stack. Also I would consider more druid levels if I was you. Like getting access to 4th level spells around level 9-10 ish. That will get you the awesome Strong Jaw spell. And a +1 Furious amulet of mighty fists should most definitely be something you should get.
I hope you have an arcane caster in your group. Because you will be needing Mage Armor for this type of build as you cannot take advantage of an Wild armor like a normal melee druid. Later on get some +5/6/7 Bracers of Armor (early teen levels I suspect is where it will be worthwhile).
Also if you for some reason go back to taking two barbarian levels consider this rage power.
Lesser Fiend Totem. Because more natural attacks are always good.
@BadBird, ah, I missed Perfect Self stuck in Extreme Endurance! Thank you!
And thank you for sharing your build with me! I think I am just going to stick with the original and take out Martial Artist.
Which reminds me, is there any official ruling on a PC changing alignment? Can I go from being Neutral Good to Lawful Neutral, so that I can be a Monk and a Druid at the same time?
Thanks in advance!
yes, you can change alignment. If the GM doesn't allow you to just say you change go and find a lawful neutral caster to cast atonement on you.
@the Diviner: Yes, we have a Sorcerer. Plus, as Bloodrager, there is always a good ol-fashioned Wand of Mage Armor.
Right now I'm curious about the alignment change. My sense is that there isn't an official ruling, so I suppose it's best for me to talk to my DM/GM/BDSM about it.
I hear you on the Strong Jaw spell, but I'm not particularly keen on spending a standard action on it.
If I do rock the Monk build, perhaps a more pertinent question is it worth it to get Natural Spell, or should I just rock a Wand of Barkskin. The one thing I couldn't do is Cheetah Sprint, which is a pretty sexy spell inside this build. Here is the build with Natural Spell:
1(Bloodrager 1): Improved Initiative
1(Bloodrager 1): Toughness BAB 1
2:(Druid 1) BAB 1
3:(Druid 2) Extra Rage BAB 2
4:(Druid 3) BAB 3
5:(Druid 4) Natural Spell BAB 4
6:(Mutation Warrior 1) Weapon Focus: Claw BAB 5
7:(MoMS 1): Shaping Focus, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style BAB 5
8:(Mutation Warrior 2) Feral Combat Training: Claw BAB 6
9:(MoMS 2) Planar Wild Shape, Dragon Ferocity BAB 7
10:(Mutation Warrior 3) BAB 8
11: (Mutation Warrior 4) Improved Critical, Combat Style Master BAB 9
12: (Mutation Warrior 5) BAB 10
You guys think the Natural Spell is worth it to save on Wand of Barkskin and allow, mainly, Cheetah Sprint, as well as the occasional Spider Climb or Air Step or Ant Haul etc.
Thanks, all.
And here's another question, if you all are game.
How does the Bloodrager's Id Rager: Anger Strength Focus work? Does the Bloodrager gain Spiritualist Phantom abilities as they advance in level? Like would an Id Ranger: Anger Bloodrager get +1 Strength at Level 2? My guess is no, as this seems too powerful, along with the armor bonus.
On a conceptual level, I like it; Ascetic Style is all about making the weapon a natural extension of one's body, so a spell that makes a creature's body more lethal ripples through their Ascetic weapon as well. Being able to tag things like Vine Strike, Strong Jaw, Bloody Claws and so-on onto a Monk/Druid's sword or staff is absolutely fantastic "Ascetic Monk-Druid" flavor!
that is light years BEYOND iffy, for an ability even the author said was poorly worded. Ask your dm before trying to build a character around it.