Exploring the possibilities of playing a heretic cleric, I realized that, strictly by the rules, a cleric doesn't actually have to believe in her faith, she simply has to worship her patron deity in order to receive her powers. The only way for a cleric to lose her powers is committing a gross violation of her code of conduct. However, it's not very clear what a 'code of conduct' actually is. Right now, we don't even know what happens if a cleric changes to a prohibited alignment. If we compare the relevant sections from both the cleric and inquisitor class, it seems rather likely that changing to a prohibited alignment would also count as a gross violation of the cleric's code of conduct, but it's not spelled out at any point.
To me, the term 'code of conduct' sounds more like a series of commandments, a list of do's and don't's, not a coherent religious system. But then again, products like Inner Sea Gods don't include codes of conduct for clerics of different faiths. Despite this, most people seem to have a clear picture of what worshipping a specific deity is all about. The small number of threads of people asking whether a cleric should become an ex-cleric seems to indicate that the authors did a pretty good job capturing the teachings of each faith. Or maybe there is a general agreement that most faiths aren't very demanding when it comes to meeting the minimum requirements for being a pious follower.
Now, to be perfectly clear, I doubt that the designers used the term 'code of conduct' to imply theological nomism. I assume they used the term because it would be easier to check whether a cleric adheres to a specific code of conduct (assuming somebody took the time to write it down at some point), whereas adherence to some nebulous core values, while more important, would be more open to interpretation.
So I'm curious: What does code of conduct meant to you? Do you write down your cleric's code of conduct? How else do you address the topic in your games?
I haven't written down a code of conduct for a cleric yet... But I find it rather easy to deduce what 'acting against the code' would entail from the deity entries... found all over the show. Its a bit hard to explain.
I guess it could be summarized as acting very differently from your religion's alignment and beliefs/dogma/portfolio.
If you worship a deity that insists on giving mercy and redemption options, but you murder all prisoners... that is acting against conduct. (which is also against the good alignment)
It is unspecific for good reason. Basically it allows dms and players to play worshippers of the different deities with a great deal more freedom. That said I'm sure that the Lawful deities at least do have codified commandments and relgious rules. EX: Asmodeon Monograph. They are simply left for players and dms to decide. Most questions are best handled on a case by case basis very similiar to how most alignment/moral questions are. As for writing your characters religious values down I personally think that is a great idea. For most of my characters I keep a small list of moral values that the character has to use for quick reference when I don't immediately know his reaction. Another thing worth mentioning is that much of the extra reading material does mention values of the religion and potential sins. IE: a cleric of Nethys giving a non caster spellcasting ability. They just never codify and catalouge into an actual book giving the players and dm more freedom
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When I play a cleric, this is a big piece of the RP. My priest of Nethys was fond of saying "Magic solves everything," and would rather climb a 30-foot pole and cast a spell than stay on the ground and use mundane solutions. My inquisitor of Groetus was... well... really dedicated to Groetus. My cleric of Brigh was constantly getting distracted by mechanical solutions for problems that no one else seemed to see...
I don't see the point of playing a cleric if I'm not going to get all the mileage I can out of the chosen deity's code and nature.
I generally play Clerics of ideas, so some sort of externally imposed code of conduct rarely comes up. My code of conduct, then, serves as a set of self-imposed RP challenges/quirks.
I use Paladin codes (and antipaladin codes since we got those too) for deities that have them as rough guidelines for things that the deities should be concerned about. If a cleric grossly violates those ideas, they're in trouble.
Outside of that it would be nice if there were just a few bullet points which explained what was important to a deity is a sort of descending order.
The Divine Anthology actually sort of addresses this with the introduction of Apocryphal Subdomains-- subdomains that don't align with, or might even contradict, the spirit of its parent domain but fall in line with the code of some clerics. Each also describes how a cleric of that subdomain might justify his or her code, even when it seems to run counter to that deity's modus operandi. IIRC, one such Apocryphal option is the Truth subdomain of the Trickery domain, with Sivanah being given as the example deity and a paragraph of justification as to why a cleric of Sivanah might love the truth.
In this way, the Divine Anthology kind of makes clear that a cleric's code of comduct is pretty nebulous, and that if there's a solid justification (which I guess would be up to the GM) you can follow tenants that might not jive well with other clerics of your same deity (within alignment-defining limits).
Exploring the possibilities of playing a heretic cleric, I realized that, strictly by the rules, a cleric doesn't actually have to believe in her faith, she simply has to worship her patron deity in order to receive her powers.
How do you worship a diety if you don't accept the faith it promulugates? That would be like saying you worship Sarenrae but don't believe that anyone can be redeemed. If you're looking for an Abrahamic style of Commandments, many of the Core 20 simply don't roll that way.
It should however be plain to see whether or not your cleric embodies the core values of their patron, which is what really matters. A Priest of Pharasma should not be raising undead, nor should they be looking to prolong their lives through magic, they should definitely not be engaging in shenannigans to procure a Sun Orchid Elixir.
A Paladin of Sarenrae likewise should not be mistaken by their conduct for a Templar form the Warhammer 40k universe.
Overall conduct is what matters... if the cleric embodies their god's precepts, than they are solid.
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How do you worship a diety if you don't accept the faith it promulugates? That would be like saying you worship Sarenrae but don't believe that anyone can be redeemed.
Sounds like an interesting character concept - someone who's lost his/her faith in the teachings of their deity, but is still empowered by that deity, for reasons they don't understand.
"I have lost my faith in the redemption of mankind, but Sarenrae still aids me; perhaps she believe that I am still redeemable."
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How do you worship a diety if you don't accept the faith it promulugates? That would be like saying you worship Sarenrae but don't believe that anyone can be redeemed.Sounds like an interesting character concept - someone who's lost his/her faith in the teachings of their deity, but is still empowered by that deity, for reasons they don't understand.
"I have lost my faith in the redemption of mankind, but Sarenrae still aids me; perhaps she believe that I am still redeemable."
I once made a goblin character who wore a "holy symbol" that was really just a tavern coaster he found and thought it made a good holy symbol. But clearly some deity or other took pity on him, because he still got spells every day. (Then again, he was actually an oracle, so I guess that doesn't count.)
Exploring the possibilities of playing a heretic cleric, I realized that, strictly by the rules, a cleric doesn't actually have to believe in her faith, she simply has to worship her patron deity in order to receive her powers.How do you worship a diety if you don't accept the faith it promulugates? That would be like saying you worship Sarenrae but don't believe that anyone can be redeemed.
There's actually an entire sect of Sarenrae worshippers in Qadira (the Cult of the Dawnflower) who are basically this, and for some reason still receive spells from her.
So, you know, there's precedent.
The Divine Anthology actually sort of addresses this with the introduction of Apocryphal Subdomains-- subdomains that don't align with, or might even contradict, the spirit of its parent domain but fall in line with the code of some clerics. Each also describes how a cleric of that subdomain might justify his or her code, even when it seems to run counter to that deity's modus operandi. IIRC, one such Apocryphal option is the Truth subdomain of the Trickery domain, with Sivanah being given as the example deity and a paragraph of justification as to why a cleric of Sivanah might love the truth.
In this way, the Divine Anthology kind of makes clear that a cleric's code of comduct is pretty nebulous, and that if there's a solid justification (which I guess would be up to the GM) you can follow tenants that might not jive well with other clerics of your same deity (within alignment-defining limits).
Published material (including the separatist and heretic archetypes) addresses the topic of heresy on the level of ecclesiastical institutions. That makes sense on many different levels, but it also raises questions. How could a church declare one of its members anathema if they are clearly still favored by the church's patron deity? There are probably some deities that would encourage direct competition between their followers, but that can hardly be true for every faith.
How do you worship a diety if you don't accept the faith it promulugates? That would be like saying you worship Sarenrae but don't believe that anyone can be redeemed. If you're looking for an Abrahamic style of Commandments, many of the Core 20 simply don't roll that way.
It should however be plain to see whether or not your cleric embodies the core values of their patron, which is what really matters. A Priest of Pharasma should not be raising undead, nor should they be looking to prolong their lives through magic, they should definitely not be engaging in shenannigans to procure a Sun Orchid Elixir.
A Paladin of Sarenrae likewise should not be mistaken by their conduct for a Templar form the Warhammer 40k universe.
Overall conduct is what matters... if the cleric embodies their god's precepts, than they are solid.
I'm playing devil's advocate here. Like I said, I don't hold to a strict nomist interpretation--faith should absolutely matter.
In the context of this game, I don't think of deities as incarnations of one faith; I see 'faith' in its ecclesiastical manifestation as a humanocentric concept created by mortals who only have limited insight into the divine. A deity could tolerate different and even conflicting denominations and sects, which are all well-intentioned but flawed attempts to worship the divine in an appropiate way. The same would be true on an individual level. A deity could certainly afford to be patient with a follower that has a crisis of faith or struggles with unresolved personal issues, confident that she will eventually regain lost conviction by herself and emerge from her crisis with a strengthened faith. If a follower dabbles in necromancy in a misguided attempt to better understand death, Pharasma may withhold punishment and give her follower the chance to realize her mistake on her own. However, the pharasmin clergy would likely be less understanding.
How do you worship a diety if you don't accept the faith it promulugates? That would be like saying you worship Sarenrae but don't believe that anyone can be redeemed.Sounds like an interesting character concept - someone who's lost his/her faith in the teachings of their deity, but is still empowered by that deity, for reasons they don't understand.
"I have lost my faith in the redemption of mankind, but Sarenrae still aids me; perhaps she believe that I am still redeemable."
My starting point was the exact opposite (a cleric who is strong in faith, but struggles with certain dogmata of her faith), but you are right, that works as well.
I would expect it to be normal for a divine character to struggle with their faith ("Am I really worthy to serve the Inheritor? Maybe if my faith had been stronger, I could have prevented the death of these innocents"), but I haven't seen a lot of players exploring the roleplaying potential associated with that struggle.
I absolutely pay enormous attention to a faithful character's faith, whether or not they're even a divine caster.
My current character is an alchemist that worships Haagenti, Bharnarol, and Brigh. It's sort of opportunistic piety - he's extremely ambitious and a little amoral, and is willing to worship whoever he needs to if it means advancing his studies.
My last character was for Wrath of the Righteous, and his faith massively informed his entire character.
He was born in a temple of Irori, the last scion of Irori's mortal bloodline (descended from Irori's brother); he ended up rejecting the church because he grew to believe that sequestering yourself in search of perfection while allowing the world outside to fall apart was selfish and foolish, but continued to have faith in Irori (and particularly in the idea of following his footsteps and self-actualizing into become a deity.)
He found the Order of the Godclaw, who shared his desire to spread order and eradicate chaos (and who also revered Irori,) but also grew to resent *them* after learning about the Order's history in the Mendevian Crusades and the fact that they abandoned their fight against the Worldwound.
Eventually, he founded his own Hellknight Order - the Order of the Lesion - and ascended to demigod status through the events of the campaign (including taking Divine Source and Legendary Item each three times, thus creating a Major Artifact and being able to grant access to four domains and four subdomains.)
Our next campaign (Jade Regent) is going to feature a band of Cayden-worshipping tavern regulars who ends up escorting their favorite tavern owner across the world.
Religions play major roles for us.
clerics have codes of conducts?
Presumably a cleric is a member of some organized religion (or is trying to get one organized, in some cases) and those sorts of things have rules for what you should do or should not do.
So even if the write-up in the CRB doesn't say "you fall if you're bad" you should probably keep some kinds of rules in mind dictated by your faith if you're playing a cleric or other extremely devout character.
I mean things like "doesn't eat meat on a specific day", or "avoids clothes with buttons", or "prohibited from eat onions or beans", "treats cats with great kindness", "always wears a headcovering/never cuts their hair" etc. are things you can use to flesh out a religious character's religious life that can make for well realized characters, if not some mildly interesting RP scenarios. It's not that following these things is harmful (though Pythagoras was wrong about beans), it's that "following some set of rules" is kind of part and parcel to being a member of a religion. "we do this thing that other people don't do" is part of how sects often do in-group/out-group policing.