
Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

Playing a cleric who doubts his faith is an interesting concept--a pharasmin who studies forbidden necromantic lore to better understand death or a shelynite who creates the grotesque and bizarre on her quest to seek beauty in the most ugliest things. Most GMs would probably be lenient with a cleric who strays from the path as part of her character development. After all, the gods are patient and humankind has been given free will, including the possibility of failure. The ecclesiastical institution may declare a character anathema, but a patron deity needn't be that dogmatic and could tolerate a certain degree of heresy.
But there comes a point where a cleric becomes an ex-cleric. Playing a cleric's fall could be a rewarding roleplaying experience, but the mechanical consequences are quiet drastic:
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
It is up to the GM to decide what constitutes a gross violation of the cleric's code of conduct (which is very unclear and described along general lines at best), but it's clear that being turned into an ex-cleric is a severe punishment. The ex-cleric either atones to regain his abilities or becomes a high-level commoner with better stats and equipment. I'd like to introduce some new options for players who want to play a fallen cleric.
1) Conversion. It's kind of strange that there are no rules for clerics who want to change their faith, though most GMs would probably allow it (the ex-cleric would likely need to publicly renounce her old faith and be ordinated by the clergy of her new faith).
2) Heresy. Think of the examples above. How would these characters react when they realize that their god has forsaken them? At least some of them would see their fall from grace as a temporary condition, a trial of faith imposed on them to test the strength of their conviction. They wouldn't grovel at the feet of a senior cleric begging for forgiveness--it's clear that everybody else is wrong while they are right. They would carry on stubbornly, and who knows? What starts out as a heresy may turn into a new variety of faith over time, finally reconciled with the established church and condoned by a patron deity who is willing to let a mortal follower 'make her case'.
How would one represent such a heretic character mechanically?
2a) Allowing the character to trade levels in ex-cleric into oracle levels could be a quick and dirty solution (it would certainly foreclose the character's permanent separation from her church).
2b) Another option would be to have the official church declare the cleric anathema without taking away the character's class abilities. (In a fantasy world where gods actually exist, the relationship between the church as a spiritual community and as an institution is a very interesting and sadly mostly unexplored topic, but that is beside the point here.) The heretic archetype for inquisitors seems to represent such a character concept best (note that an inquistor doesn't have to observe a special code of conduct, though she must adhere to the deity's alignment restrictions).
2c) It would be possible to take away only a few class abilities to represent the fact that the character is 'on probation' and the final verdict hasn't passed yet. Maybe using clerical abilities causes the character to become sickened, spells only work at minimum caster level, etc.
Do you have any experiences with cases like these or suggestions how to handle them?
Note: I guess there are some similarities to fallen paladins, but I'm not really interested in debates about alignment. I'm more interested in the question how to handle a player who would want to play a heretic cleric.

The Sideromancer |
Have you seen the separatist archetype? It trades out the favoured weapon proficiency and one of the normal domains (for that deity) for a level-reduced version of a domain the deity doesn't normally have. The fluff even flat out says that particularly charismatic separatists can and have formed splinter churches.

Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

Yeah, the official stance seems to be that the church as in institution can be more dogmatic and less tolerant than the patron deity who still grants spells to a follower that may have some unorthodox beliefs. It would likely cause some interesting theological problems--after all, why should the clergy excommunicate a member that is evidently still favored by the deity? How could an orthodox clergy that claims to hold the one true faith even exist if the patron deity tolerates different interpretations of the faith? I assume that some deities would intervene to prevent intra-faith conflict on a larger scale, whereas others (likely on the chaotic spectrum) would welcome a competition between different branches of the faith. The schism in Sarenrae's church seems to indicate that, while not common, intra-faith conflicts do exist in Golarion.
The separatist cleric could still become an ex-cleric though. So it comes back to the question what constitutes a gross violation against the cleric's code of conduct, which is pretty much up to the GM?

Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

I think it wouldn't hurt anybody if they had included codes of conduct for each deity in a product like Inner Sea Gods. Right now, we don't even know what happens if a cleric changes to a prohibited alignment. If we compare the relevant sections from both the cleric and inquisitor class, it seems rather likely that changing to a prohibited alignment would also count as a gross violation of the cleric's code of conduct, but it's not spelled out at any point.
I think the problem with alignment debates is more that the game introduces alignment both as metaphysical and ethical concepts, describes them in very nebulous terms, and creates some weird connections between those two. It's basically a platonist's wet dream. This, combined with the fact that most people have strong opinions on ethics, creates some very heated discussions.
Returning to my question how to represent a heretic cleric: What I take from this is that it's best to avoid the point where the cleric would turn into an ex-cleric and instead focus on the conflict between the cleric and her church.

Drahliana Moonrunner |

Returning to my question how to represent a heretic cleric: What I take from this is that it's best to avoid the point where the cleric would turn into an ex-cleric and instead focus on the conflict between the cleric and her church.
You need to retain simpatico with at least ONE of your diety's core values. If you get to the point where you don't share any of your diety's core values, you might as well be worshipping someone else.

Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

I think you just pointed out another important aspect (the problem of theological legalism/nomism). Code of conduct sounds more like a list of do's and don't's and being a believer is about more than just following a set of rules with blind obedience. One might even argue that the way the cleric class is written, it requires worship, not actual belief on a spiritual level!
Though I think I understand why they used the term 'code of conduct'. In the context of the game, it would be quiet easy to check whether a cleric adheres to a code of conduct (assuming somebody took the time to write it down at some point), whereas adherence to the core values, while more important, is more open to interpretation.

Dreaming Psion |

I think when it comes to disputes of faith and dogma in a fantasy world (particularly in in a 3.5/Pathfinder world), you have some things to consider.
1) the presence of deities, their omniscience, and how much/little they muck about in the world
2) magic items like phylacteries of faithfulness, very cheap (relatively speaking) and another answer to what might/might not anger your deity.
3) in high fantasy games like PF, you have several spells where you can dial up your deity on the telephone or the equivalent to solve any doctrinal disputes.
Any potential heretic character ideas/plots/etc. might wish to take these ideas into consideration on how/why they are disregarded.
ideas on how to represent heretic/fallen clerics. Well, they could always pick up support from another deity under the pretenses of serving their old god (at least at first.) Another option is to make a character that doesn't actually depend on divine magic to depend with- a bard could be a former choir leader, for example. Monks and witches might work as well. Worship and devotion as roleplay elements shouldn't be confined to divine spellcasters.

Amanuensis RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

I think it has become clear that I prefer more ambiguity. Deities don't have to represent or enforce coherent religious systems (that feels more like something that mortals would do), they can harbor different denominations under the broad roof of their belief. And the different denominations would likely have champions among the divine agents of the deity, who would constantly argue their cause before the patron deity. I strongly dislike character options that penetrate the black box of ambiguity, but then again, the loose wording of spells like commune or items like the phylactery of faithfulness allows the GM enough leeway that it doesn't become a problem.
Unwitting adoptation by another god is another possibility that I didn't mention. Though it would raise the question why a deity would want to do that (I assume the long-term goal would be corruption/conversion or simply damaging the church of a rival deity). This would be something that player and GM have to work out in advance. The character would at some point realize the deception and either return to the fold or become a follower of the new deity. It's basically a variation of the conversion/atonement narrative.
You are of course correct that other classes can be used to build interesting characters who struggle with their faith. But I would assume that the struggle is more threatening to a cleric whose self-image is predominantly defined by her belief. A pious fighter in a crisis of faith may wonder if his whole life has been a lie, but he would still be fighter.

The Sideromancer |
Re: adoption by another deity, this effectively happened in my headcanon origin of the Drow. After (badly) losing a holy war over the tenants of the soon-to-be Green Faith, they were forced underground, relaiant on their animals to defend themselves, with no knowledge of how to farm underground. Some demon lord said "hey, these guys will be under my thumb indefinitely if I become their main source of sustenance (via Create Food and Water), let's 'be helpful.'" Hence, the drow now live in an Abyssal theocracy until somebody gets some big farms up and running.