eldritch archer Magus archtype and arcane archer

[koluminar]

here we go again.
back to the age old question, is the arcane archer prestige class worth it?
heres my current rough build.

first 3 levels of my character were gestalted by GM discretion but 4th level onward is single class only.

level3 zen archer monk, gestalt with lvl 3 eldritch archer magus.

allowed 3 traits with one drawback
reactionary
magical lineage-snowball
gifted adept - snowball

drawback meticulous

i want to see if arcane archer is worth it to take to level 10, or if i should even include it at all, at my current rate, i already qualify for entry to the class minus the BAB of +6, ill meet that at level 7. i used unchained monk as the base of the zen archer.

my primary styles of attack are to rapid shot spell combat some orisons for 3 attacks with spells at -4 atk for the round,
alternatively i can flurry of bows. and spend a ki point from unchained to get 3 attacks at full BAB. no spell combat, built for diversity i took the spell scars magus arcana and the arcane acuracy with extra arcana feat.

my ability scores are
STR 12
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 18
CHA 12

[master_marshmallow]

I like taking Arcane Archer to 2, then finishing with Eldritch Knight.

There's a feat in Paths of the Righteous that gets you more casting progression, or you can use Magical Knack to get your CL up to full.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Curious, Marsh, I was thinking a good AA would get there via Eldritch Knight. Say 1 level in Ranger, 5 in Wizard, like 2 in EK, then the rest in Arcane Archer.

I think Zen Archers are very powerful, but if I were going with Zen Archer, I'd probably just stick with that, since they really favor single class progression.

[Kurald Galain]

Eldritch Archer is better than Arcane Archer. If you're running a different kind of build it may be a useful prestige class, but on a Magus build you should stick with the Magus.

[master_marshmallow]

AA saves you on two arcana, and you can move and attack still.

[koluminar]

how does AA save you on two arcana? i must be confused, and im assuming that you are prefering eldritch knight over AA due to only losing one level of spell progression. i agree in that. but im thinking the arrow abilities might be worth it.

my GM has ruled that the special abilities AA grants are similar to the effects of fire arrow, or keen edge, and do not count against the +10 cap of weapon enhancements, however the magus arcana pool ability does. so i can enchant my bow to a +5 whatever, and still get the benefit of my arrows gaining all the properties.

i am thuroughly enjoying this character so far and im looking to squeeze as much as possible out of it.

i am allowed to use material from any source, including 3rd party

[master_marshmallow]

Imbue Arrow covers the two ranged spell strike arcanas effectively, extending your range to that of the arrow.

[koluminar]

but i thought imbue arrow only allowed y ou to imbue area spells into your arrows, like fireball or something like that?

[master_marshmallow]

koluminar wrote:

but i thought imbue arrow only allowed y ou to imbue area spells into your arrows, like fireball or something like that?

Right, you can already do your touch and ranged touch, and there's an arcana for rays.

[avr]

If 3rd party's OK then a level dip in warder with the hawkguard archetype any time after 4th level would be really tempting. A few 1st-2nd level solar wind maneuvers would be very useful.

No, it doesn't advance anything directly relating to an eldritch archer, but I still think it'd be worth it. You might even find the bladecaster prestige class worthwhile.

[Kurald Galain]

koluminar wrote:

but i thought imbue arrow only allowed y ou to imbue area spells into your arrows, like fireball or something like that?

The question is, why would you want to attach a fireball to your arrow, instead of casting it normally?

[koluminar]

im just trying to understand how the original arcane archer class works, if imbue arrow only lets me cast area spells with it, then it does not make up for the two ranged magus arcana. reach spellstrike and distant spellstrike. those two arcana make up for the loss in versatility, but not till levels 9, and 12. too far in for it to be worth it, unless imbue arrows works like you said it did.

[Kurald Galain]

koluminar wrote:

im just trying to understand how the original arcane archer class works, if imbue arrow only lets me cast area spells with it, then it does not make up for the two ranged magus arcana. reach spellstrike and distant spellstrike. those two arcana make up for the loss in versatility, but not till levels 9, and 12. too far in for it to be worth it, unless imbue arrows works like you said it did.

Right.

The arcane archer lets you attach only area spells to an arrow. The main benefit of this is extended range (you use the arrow's range rather than the spell's range, although for long-range spells such as Fireball that doesn't really matter). The drawback is that if the arrow misses, the spell disappears. This is not usually a worthwhile ability: if you're a good archer, then a full attack is generally better, and if you're not a good archer, casting the spell directly is generally better.

Eldritch archer lets you attach ranged touch spells to an arrow. Benefit is extended range; drawback is a major loss of accuracy (since spells target touch AC and arrows target regular AC). This is not usually a worthwhile ability either.

Reach Spellstrike lets you attach melee touch spells to an arrow, range of about 50' depending on your level. The Card Caster archetype can also do this (and despite its name, it can throw other things aside from cards). This is a good ability.

Distant Spellstrike ups the range of the above, and isn't usually that impressive either.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Kurald Galain wrote:

koluminar wrote:

but i thought imbue arrow only allowed y ou to imbue area spells into your arrows, like fireball or something like that?

The question is, why would you want to attach a fireball to your arrow, instead of casting it normally?

If you are a good archer whose arrows have a big punch in their own right, then attacking with an arrow that also Fireballs her and everyone around her might be a just swell idea.

Fireballs have a Range that's even longer than Longbow range, depending on the archer and the wizard, perhaps. But not all Spells have a Long Range. Only Long Range Spells do. So you can cast Create Pit on an arrow and fire it at longbow range. Maybe dip it in poison, too. Dip your arrow in a Strength-sapping poison. Put Create Pit on it, and shoot him. Now he takes Arrow Damage; he at the bottom of a Pit, and he has less Strength to climb out with. Or maybe, use a Dex-Sapping poison to diminish your Target's Saving Throw against falling into the Pit in the first place. You could do something similarly nasty with Web, Stinking Cloud, or Glitterdust.

[Dragonchess Player]

Kurald Galain wrote:

koluminar wrote:

but i thought imbue arrow only allowed y ou to imbue area spells into your arrows, like fireball or something like that?

The question is, why would you want to attach a fireball to your arrow, instead of casting it normally?

It's not so much fireball, but spells like burning hands (possibly Intensified), color spray, obscuring mist (on an enemy archer), glitterdust, gust of wind, stone call, web, hydraulic torrent, lightning bolt, stinking cloud, etc. The imbued spell has the range of the bow and the spell's point of origin becomes the arrow on striking the target (even for "personal" or "no range" spells); even a shortbow has a greater range than medium range spell (although with penalties; -2 at 60 to 120 ft, -4 at 120 to 180 ft, -6 at 180 to 240 ft, etc.), while a composite longbow is (of course) the "best" choice (-2 at 110 to 220 ft, -4 at 220 to 330 ft, etc.).

[Kurald Galain]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

It's not so much fireball, but spells like burning hands (possibly Intensified), color spray, obscuring mist (on an enemy archer), glitterdust, gust of wind, stone call, web, hydraulic torrent, lightning bolt, stinking cloud, etc. The imbued spell has the range of the bow and the spell's point of origin becomes the arrow on striking the target (even for "personal" or "no range" spells); even a shortbow has a greater range than medium range spell (although with penalties; -2 at 60 to 120 ft, -4 at 120 to 180 ft, -6 at 180 to 240 ft, etc.), while a composite longbow is (of course) the "best" choice (-2 at 110 to 220 ft, -4 at 220 to 330 ft, etc.).

Right. So the arcane archer is a comparable effect to a metamagic rod of reach.

The upside of the AA is that some spells (e.g. color spray) are not affected by the metarod.

The upside of the metarod is that
(1) some spells (e.g. vampiric touch) are not affected by the AA,
(2) missing with the arrow wastes the spell (at least 5% chance, more at bigger range, and MUCH more if you're actually trying to hit an enemy with an arrow);
(3) a 3000 gp item is much easier to get than two levels in a prestige class.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Kurald Galain wrote:

koluminar wrote:

im just trying to understand how the original arcane archer class works, if imbue arrow only lets me cast area spells with it, then it does not make up for the two ranged magus arcana. reach spellstrike and distant spellstrike. those two arcana make up for the loss in versatility, but not till levels 9, and 12. too far in for it to be worth it, unless imbue arrows works like you said it did.

Right.

The arcane archer lets you attach only area spells to an arrow. The main benefit of this is extended range (you use the arrow's range rather than the spell's range, although for long-range spells such as Fireball that doesn't really matter). The drawback is that if the arrow misses, the spell disappears. This is not usually a worthwhile ability: if you're a good archer, then a full attack is generally better, and if you're not a good archer, casting the spell directly is generally better.

Eldritch archer lets you attach ranged touch spells to an arrow. Benefit is extended range; drawback is a major loss of accuracy (since spells target touch AC and arrows target regular AC). This is not usually a worthwhile ability either.

Reach Spellstrike lets you attach melee touch spells to an arrow, range of about 50' depending on your level. The Card Caster archetype can also do this (and despite its name, it can throw other things aside from cards). This is a good ability.

Distant Spellstrike ups the range of the above, and isn't usually that impressive either.

koluminar,

If all your concerns are correct, remember that Arcane Archer came fist and Eldritch Archer came second. That means the more appropriate question would be why did they create this Magus Archetype to make Arcane Archers obsolete and pointless? Were I to guess, I'd guess that Paizo didn't create the Arcane Archer: they modified it from 3rd Edition, and they wanted the thing they created themselves to be cooler than that other thing.

Something else to bear in mind, Arcane Archers get other cool stuff, too. They get Phase Arrow, Distance, and Hail of Arrows: Whirlwind Attack for Arrows.

In addition, Arcane Archer is a more flexible template. You might not want the Magus Spell List, you might prefer the Wizard, Ranger, or Cleric Spell List. Imbue Arrow works with all of them. If you make the AA I suggested above: 1 level in Ranger, 5 in Wizard, 2 in EK, then the rest in AA, you basically have a near full Wizard who can shoot arrows. The fastest route to Arcane Archer is via Ranger: 6 levels in Ranger, then take levels in Arcane Archer. This would be a Rull BAB archer who can cast spells. An Eldritch Archer would be somewhere in between, and not everybody wants that.

Something else to bear in mind: Some GMs only allow Core Rulebook. In fact, there is a division of Pathfinder Society Play that is Core Rulebook only. Arcane Archer is Core Rulebook.

[EmberKin]

The thing to remember is that the Magus class in and of itself was originally designed to fulfill the fantasy niche of the Eldritch Knight in a more updated and streamline package. Many archetypes are the result of attempts to wrestle grandfathered PrCs from past editions into a manageable form. The Eldritch Archer and to a smaller extent, Arrowsong Minstrel were attempts to rehash the spirit of Arcane Archer onto a new Pathfinder friendly chassis of mechanics.

[steven kent]

if you want a great character, drop magus completely.

wizard/fighter gasalt for 3 levels (I prefer trapper ranger).
then wizard to 5 and then into eldritch knight until 10, AA until 12, then finish off Eldritch knight to 20.

the reason why this is a better choice, is because of anti magic field at a range with a full wizards spell list. it is literally the most powerful character I know of. think of being able to drop an antimagic field on a Litch, while still having great physical damage to kill the target.

but if you're set on staying magus then AA isn't a necessary choice. I would argue that you gain enough from the class to make staying pure worth while. max out your caster level and ignore imbue arrow since it slows the progression of your necessary class abilities. if the magus had a better selection of aoe spells then it would be worth it.

if you do choose to try the Eldritch Knight build, then you owe it to yourself to focus on conjuration school of magic, or divination school for the alternate school specialization. having control of the battlefield is much more valuable then damage, so keep that in mind while you choose your spell lists.

[Kurald Galain]

steven kent wrote:

think of being able to drop an antimagic field on a Litch,

What's stopping the lich from simply walking out of the AMF?

[Dragonchess Player]

Kurald Galain wrote:

steven kent wrote:

think of being able to drop an antimagic field on a Litch,

What's stopping the lich from simply walking out of the AMF?

Because it's centered on them, not their square:

Core Rulebook wrote:

Imbue Arrow (Su): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range.

Core Rulebook wrote:

ANTIMAGIC FIELD

School abjuration; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

The imbued arrow "lands" on the lich with a successful attack (and using a Quickened true strike almost guarantees a hit) and the antimagic field then "surrounds... and moves with" the target. Note, this is the classic "shutdown enemy casters" ability that a high-level arcane archer is known for.

[Dragonchess Player]

EmberKin wrote:

The thing to remember is that the Magus class in and of itself was originally designed to fulfill the fantasy niche of the Eldritch Knight in a more updated and streamline package. Many archetypes are the result of attempts to wrestle grandfathered PrCs from past editions into a manageable form. The Eldritch Archer and to a smaller extent, Arrowsong Minstrel were attempts to rehash the spirit of Arcane Archer onto a new Pathfinder friendly chassis of mechanics.

The 3.x arcane archer didn't advance spellcasting. The Pathfinder version is much more caster friendly.

Also, the Imbue Arrow feature only works with area effect spells. The magus Spellstrike feature (and variants) only works with touch (and/or ranged touch) spells, a slightly different emphasis. About the only way other way than magus/arcane archer to be able to "cast spells through a weapon" with both is a spellslinger wizard.

Personally, dipping 3 levels in arcane archer gives an eldritch archer magus (or an arrowsong minstrel bard) enough extra benefits to make it worth considering, even with the one level caster progression hit and three level hit to class features.

[Kurald Galain]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Because it's centered on them, not their square:

That's not what the rules say (as should be obvious from the fact that you have to write "lands" in quotes). What you're looking for, and what this isn't, is an ability that targets the spell on whom the arrow HITS.

[Dragonchess Player]

Kurald Galain wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Because it's centered on them, not their square:

That's not what the rules say (as should be obvious from the fact that you have to write "lands" in quotes). What you're looking for, and what this isn't, is an ability that targets the spell on whom the arrow HITS.

It's a direct quote of the rules.

So, if an arrow strikes something it doesn't land on it? Shenanigans. Stop trying to twist this into "the rules don't specifically say 'hit' or 'successful attack,' so synonyms are unacceptable." The wording of Imbue Arrow states "lands" because the rules allow characters to attack a grid intersection (AC 5) and objects, as well as creatures.

And the effect of the spell specifically states it moves with the target.

[Kurald Galain]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

It's a direct quote of the rules.

Lol, you're hilarious.

Stop trying to twist this into "the rules don't specifically say 'hit' or 'successful attack,' so therefore they mean 'hit' or 'successful attack' anyway."

Your combo doesn't work. Now let's get back to the OP's question, he was asking for options on level four so your level 20 suggestion isn't relevant anyway.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Kurald Galain wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Because it's centered on them, not their square:

That's not what the rules say (as should be obvious from the fact that you have to write "lands" in quotes). What you're looking for, and what this isn't, is an ability that targets the spell on whom the arrow HITS.

Dragonchess Player is right about Antimagic Field: arrows land where they hit unless we are talking about some very special trick arrow. A Marker Dye arrow arguably bounces off the target that it hits and lands at its feet. Raining arrows are meant to be shot over the heads of their targets, I think. Also, it seems to me that arrows that miss still land somewhere, and that's where the spell goes off, I guess. There's no game mechanic that definitely covers this, though, so what, use splash-weapon-miss rules?

And Kurald, even if you are right, Arcane Archers are the best Class I know of for casting Antimagic Field on something other than themselves. I'm pretty sure other classes are not intended to be able to do that. It's still a really lovely tactic to use on a Lich. Using it on a Lich who might then just walk away means you have to use it in conjunction with other tactics. Wait to cast AMF until the party's Tetori Monk has or is about to close in. Then it's AMF!

[Garbage-Tier Waifu]

master_marshmallow wrote:

I like taking Arcane Archer to 2, then finishing with Eldritch Knight.

There's a feat in Paths of the Righteous that gets you more casting progression, or you can use Magical Knack to get your CL up to full.

It isn't just an increase caster level. Prestigious Spellcaster grants spellcasting levels where the prestige class does not normally. Though the feat says 'caster level' in it's special section, the intent was always to replace the '-' in a prestige class that grants spellcasting levels with additional spellcasting levels in those spaces. This means you can gain an additional 2 spellcasting levels in both AA and EK in each of their fist level spellcasting gaps. It was clarified I think by James Jacobs on the blog post for Paths of the Righteous

[koluminar]

what about the trade off of class abilities, since i chose zen archer monk to gestalt with in addition to my eldritch archer, i will lose my armor proficiencies, here is my next question. do you feel that heavy armor at level 13 is worth more than my wisdom bonus to ATK, AC, etc from monk?

monk features i effectively will lose are my AC bonus, Fast movement, and ranged flurry.

i will gain medium armor prof and possibly heavy depending on how many levels in AA i plan to take.

what style is more optimal? go armorless and try to find other ways to defend? or go with armor and lose the monk abilities? ill keep the levels regardless because of the plethora of bonus feats.

[ZanThrax]

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

I like taking Arcane Archer to 2, then finishing with Eldritch Knight.

There's a feat in Paths of the Righteous that gets you more casting progression, or you can use Magical Knack to get your CL up to full.

It isn't just an increase caster level. Prestigious Spellcaster grants spellcasting levels where the prestige class does not normally. Though the feat says 'caster level' in it's special section, the intent was always to replace the '-' in a prestige class that grants spellcasting levels with additional spellcasting levels in those spaces. This means you can gain an additional 2 spellcasting levels in both AA and EK in each of their fist level spellcasting gaps. It was clarified I think by James Jacobs on the blog post for Paths of the Righteous

I was looking at Prestigious Spellcaster earlier, and I don't think it's possible to take it for more than one PrC since the prerequisite feat can't be taken more than once. An EK/AA can get all the missed AA caster levels back, but not the EK one.

[Garbage-Tier Waifu]

ZanThrax wrote:

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

I like taking Arcane Archer to 2, then finishing with Eldritch Knight.

There's a feat in Paths of the Righteous that gets you more casting progression, or you can use Magical Knack to get your CL up to full.

It isn't just an increase caster level. Prestigious Spellcaster grants spellcasting levels where the prestige class does not normally. Though the feat says 'caster level' in it's special section, the intent was always to replace the '-' in a prestige class that grants spellcasting levels with additional spellcasting levels in those spaces. This means you can gain an additional 2 spellcasting levels in both AA and EK in each of their fist level spellcasting gaps. It was clarified I think by James Jacobs on the blog post for Paths of the Righteous

I was looking at Prestigious Spellcaster earlier, and I don't think it's possible to take it for more than one PrC since the prerequisite feat can't be taken more than once. An EK/AA can get all the missed AA caster levels back, but not the EK one.

Oh oops you are totally right!

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Tangential question: I see several recommendations to take AA 2, but why not to 4? You don't lose any casting progression for AA 3 and 4.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

Tangential question: I see several recommendations to take AA 2, but why not to 4? You don't lose any casting progression for AA 3 and 4.

I like Arcane Archer. I think AA 10 is powerful.

[avr]

AA 3 and AA 4 don't gain much. Enhance arrows (elemental) is only usuable with non-magic arrows, and Seeker arrow is both a weak option and 1/day. More levels in Eldritch Knight on the other hand puts you closer to the PrC capstone with every level (and it's a decent capstone) and the levels stack for feat prerequisites based off fighter or your arcane casting class, or more levels in magus gives you progression of a whole bunch of class abilities.