Making Revolver Ocelot - Questions

[Captain Battletoad]

So I'm wanting to make Revolver Ocelot for a campaign (don't know which campaign yet, but most of my group's campaigns use the same rules regarding firearms so it should be fine) and in making the build I have a few ideas and I wanted to get some input on them. Obviously the first build that comes to mind is a full-on Gunslinger. While I like the Gunslinger (and will probably take a one-level dip in it no matter what), I can't help but think that there are better (maybe less accurate RP-wise) choices. Because of how expensive revolvers are to fire (metal cartridges cost 15 gp a piece) I'm almost certainly going to need a wand of Abundant Ammunition (unless there's a better way to get continuous ammo) which in the early game will mean that I probably want to take the Rich Parents trait in order to buy one right off the bat. Why get it at level 1, you ask? Well assuming I'm not misreading anything, if I took a level of Battle Host Occultist, I would be able to choose a weapon (with no written restrictions that I can find) and be given a Masterwork version of it for free when I begin play. That means I can have a 4300 gp masterwork revolver starting at level one, with enough ammo to actually use it (Abundant Ammunition wand), and have the ability to buff it through taking the Transmutation school at 1st level. What I'm having trouble with is figuring out the order of things. I'll most likely want to take a level dip in Gunslinger for the free proficiency, Deeds, and Gunsmithing, but when should I do it? If I do that at level 1 and then go Battle Host at level 2, would I get the free gun from Gunslinger AND the free gun from Battle Host, or would I only get one of those? Also, what would be a strong progression after those first couple of levels?

[Pizza Lord]

Well, you could assume he makes and loads his own rounds, so Craft skill will cut the price by 1/3rd.

I seem to remember he didn't start out using a revolver. Though he was likely always a 'gunslinger.' I think the first time he encountered Big Boss (different codename at the time) he got beat because he was using a clip pistol and spinning and firing it like a cowboy. It jammed and Boss told him he was using a revolver technique before knocking him out. (After that, I shot the unconscious Ocelet and received the Paradox Game Over, "Snake, you can't just change time!")

Of course, after 2nd-level or so, he probably has a masterwork revolver.

[N. Jolly]

That is one of the builds I have on my guide, although for really getting revolver with it would probably involve some of the grit feats for better blind/ricochet shots.

[Captain Battletoad]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Well, you could assume he makes and loads his own rounds, so Craft skill will cut the price by 1/3rd.

I seem to remember he didn't start out using a revolver. Though he was likely always a 'gunslinger.' I think the first time he encountered Big Boss (different codename at the time) he got beat because he was using a clip pistol and spinning and firing it like a cowboy. It jammed and Boss told him he was using a revolver technique before knocking him out. (After that, I shot the unconscious Ocelet and received the Paradox Game Over, "Snake, you can't just change time!")

Of course, after 2nd-level or so, he probably has a masterwork revolver.

Unless I'm mistaken, when gunsmithing metal cartridges, the cost is 1/2 market value, not 1/3. Since that would make it 7.5 gp/round, it's a better deal to go with a wand of Abundant Ammunition (for 750 gp, a wand would give you 300 rounds (game terms, not gun terms) of free ammo, whereas the same price just building the ammo would give you a quantity of 100). As for when he gets his revolvers, I'm not terribly concerned. I'll be playing him like he is in The Phantom Pain, but using some personality traits from all over the MG series.

*Also side note, they're magazines, not clips.

[Captain Battletoad]

N. Jolly wrote:

That is one of the builds I have on my guide, although for really getting revolver with it would probably involve some of the grit feats for better blind/ricochet shots.

Thanks, reading through it now.

[Pizza Lord]

Captain Battletoad wrote:

Unless I'm mistaken, when gunsmithing metal cartridges, the cost is 1/2 market value, not 1/3. Since that would make it 7.5 gp/round.

Well, if that's what you read. I assumed that metal cartridges use the standard crafting rules of 1/3rd cost materials. The 1/2 cost is typically for magical items, which may include most specialty ammo and alchemical ammunition. So if the part you're reading doesn't say 'alchemical ammo', then typical ammunition should fall under normal weapon-crafting (gunsmithing) rules, but if they say that a metal cartridge costs half the price to craft, it's possible I missed that.

As for whether a wand of abundant ammunition is still a better, cost-effective choice, that's neither here nor there. At that point it falls to whether the character can use it and whether it makes sense for him to use it. And that all falls in your court, but I think the point of Revolver Ocelot is that he is an anachronism, he's using a technologically inferior weapon and style (for the setting he appears in) because it's cool, makes him memorable, and is exciting to him because he loves reloading in a fire-fight.

Quote:

*Also side note, they're magazines, not clips.

I know. I used the term 'clip-pistol' to denote he was not using a 'cylinder' weapon, like a revolver, in the encounter (since I can't recall the exact gun.)

[Captain Battletoad]

N. Jolly wrote:

That is one of the builds I have on my guide, although for really getting revolver with it would probably involve some of the grit feats for better blind/ricochet shots.

Aright, so I just finished reading the guide.

1) Awesome guide, and very, very helpful!

2) Since I assume this guide was written before the Occult classes were released, what do you think of the Gunslinger 1-2/Battle Host X idea?

The big benefits of a Battle Host would be: starting with a masterwork version of your gun (I think my DM would allow me to use a revolver for this, since there aren't any RAW restrictions that I'm seeing) for free, the gun is immune to the Broken condition for just about any case that we care about (eliminating the need for Quick Clear and allowing us to (mostly) disregard misfire), the Transmutation school gives us free +X to our DEX and the ability to add enhancement bonuses/special weapon abilities for a minute at a time along with Haste, and taking the Illusion or Divination schools second will give us either a bonus to sight and AC/Saves once/turn or a bonus to our ability to sneak. For Gunslinger, I'm leaning towards the Mysterious Stranger archetype since it not only fits Ocelot's character (but so does the Pistolero), I'm also heavily biased in favor of the charisma stat, just because.

[Claxon]

Pizza Lord wrote:

I know. I used the term 'clip-pistol' to denote he was not using a 'cylinder' weapon, like a revolver, in the encounter (since I can't recall the exact gun.)

I believe the term you were shooting for is semi-automatic pistol, as far as I'm aware all magazine fed pistols are semi-automatic (or automatic).

[Pizza Lord]

Captain Battletoad wrote:

For Gunslinger, I'm leaning towards the Mysterious Stranger archetype since it not only fits Ocelot's character (but so does the Pistolero), I'm also heavily biased in favor of the charisma stat, just because.

I'm inclined to agree. Mysterious Stranger does suit Ocelot more. He does seem more charismatic and mysterious. He's almost always in a leadership position or right-hand to the leader and it also suits him a bit more that he uses his charm and 'luck' rather than Wisdom, ie:

'Should I use a revolver technique in my shooting style when I am not using a revolver?' The wise answer is, 'No'. His answer: "It looks bad-ass."
"Is it wise to use a weapon you're going to have to reload by hand in the middle of shootout?" The wise answer is probably "Not if there's a better choice." His answer is, "I love reloading in a firefight!"

I don't really view him as a 'occult' type, canon-wise, though obviously you have the call on variations and for building your character.

As for getting a free masterwork pistol... that sounds good, but you should be able to get one yourself easily enough with a little work. Sure, you may have to deal with a misfire now again (at least until 5th-level Mysterious Stranger). The truth is... Ocelot had to deal with a mis-fire himself and that's just one of the quirks and parts of his story that actually made him into the awesome gunslinger you want to play (Yes, although in your case if it happened it would be a misfire with a revolver.) Don't be afraid of them.

Claxon wrote:

I believe the term you were shooting for is semi-automatic pistol, as far as I'm aware all magazine fed pistols are semi-automatic (or automatic).

Technically correct, A revolver is normally considered 'single-' or 'double-action' rather than 'semi-automatic' even though each trigger pull does ready the next bullet in the 'magazine' for firing with no other action necessary from the user. Which is what I consider the main component for being considered 'semi-automatic'. Only the fact that it is the pulling of the trigger that prepares the next round rather than the force of expended gases from the fired bullet that cycles it might cause contention.

However, while most 'magazine-fed' pistols will be at least semi-automatic (meaning you won't have to cock them between shots) obviously the automatic ones aren't and any one that fires more than 1 round, such as burst-fire pistols. Though they may have a 'semi-automatic' firing mode, they wouldn't be considered 'semi-automatic'. They would at best be called 'selective-fire'.

Also, while I could have just said 'semi-automatic', and since Ocelot fires single shots with it during the scene, Snake refers to it as an 'automatic' when he tells tells Ocelot he was using a revolver technique. So, despite Ocelot's ability to dispense single rounds with each trigger pull (through skill, likely), calling it a 'semi-automatic' would have been incorrect (Unless Snake is incorrect in his description of the gun.)

When I used the term 'clip pistol' it was to denote that it was a pistol, fed by a clip or magazine purely as a descriptive space and time saver on a forum that is not a firearms website nor even for a game based on firearm accuracy or history (such as spent magazines and shells not being able to be reused or reloaded.) As such 'clip pistol' should have been adequate to save everyone the time of having to read, "Major Ocelot was using a pistol with a magazine instead of the revolver he would later come to be known for."

Since it was only a supplementary comment after a reply pertaining to the original post, I think the brevity and and time-saving should have just been appreciated for what it was, rather than... rendering it a moot point by expending post space on it.
;) <----- This is meant to be a winky face. For levity and to save time and space for the purpose of indicating that the preceding comments are light-hearted.

[Revolver Ocelot]

You would want to be like me, wouldn't you?

Consider a Maverick. So you can spin your guns for as long as you want. Gun Twirling is a free action.

[Endency]

Could grab dazzling display and flavor it as juggling your guns.

[The Sideromancer]

Dotting because I'm helping somebody convert Overwatch characters, and the same thing apply to McCree (revolver when way better guns are availible.)

[Captain Battletoad]

I'm really starting to reconsider whether I need a level in Gunslinger at all. So my primary goals are: having a revolver (accomplished by my level in Battle Host Occultist), being able to shoot it (I'm considering swapping my level or two in Gunslinger out for 1-2 levels in Spellslinger Wizard for this), and being able to stay relevant with damage (a little more tricky and I haven't thought much about later levels yet, so I won't touch on this at the moment). With two levels in Spellslinger Wizard, I would be losing deeds (though honestly I would only have been using the CHA-to-DAM deed from Mysterious Stranger, which is no huge loss), getting lower HD for my Wizard levels, and getting a reduced BAB (though when all of my attacks will be against Touch AC, that's not as big of a deal). In exchange, I'd be getting 3 casts (at Wizard level 2) of 2-minute Abundant Ammunition every day (which would drastically reduce the cost of shooting my gun and buying AA wands) and I would still be getting my firearm proficiency as well as Gunsmithing. An alternate route would be to instead take those levels in Bard (since they also get AA as a spell) and instead take Gunsmithing and proficiency as feats (not ideal given a gun build's dependency on feats), but it would have the added benefit of 8 Bardic Performance rounds/day. Hmmmm, any thoughts?