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http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rz8y?Does-Litany-of-Righteousness-work-like
Hello everyone. So I am wondering if there has been an official ruling on how littany of righteousness damage gets calculated. It recebtly came up at my local group and we are not sure exactly how to deal with it.
The question boils down to essentially wheither littany of righteousness is a buff to the party or a debuff to the target. If a buff to the party you "double damage" like a crit ans it would follow the crit stacking rules for dice/damage calculation. If a debuff to the creature it would essentially function like a vulnerability and "double damage" after all other calculations have been made.
If everyone wants to discuss this for the zillionth time have at it, but I am really just looking for an official PFS ruling to know how it should be treated.
Thank you,
I have linked at the top the most recent discussion on the topic i can find.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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There is no official PFS ruling, however it is pretty clear to me that litany of righteousness targets a creature, so it is an effect on one creature, not an effect on your party.
IMO since creatures with a good aura are doing double damage you would follow the multiplication stacking rules.
That is the interesting part about it, there are a lot of valid ways to (RA)Interpret how it should work, my group just was trying to find something official so we don't have to worry about table variation and such things.
So we agree it is a debuff, that is good.
Michael is of the impression it is a debuff that would be factored in to damage output (ie like a critical).
Ragoz you say the target recieves double damage, does that mean you think it should applied at the last step?
Normal formula as I understand:
([Crit multiplier[dice+str+straight damage buffs]+extra dice]-resistance)×vulnerability
Good aligned longsword with 12 str and bardic song playing, using vitalstrike does a critical hit on an enemy with good vulnerability, but a ring giving 5 good resistance.
([2[1d8+1+1]+1d8]-5)×1.5
([2d8+4+1d8]-5)×1.5
(3d8-1)x1.5
Avg 18.75
Now if the bracket parts are attacker based where the rest is target based. Thats why to me and if I'm understanding Ragoz right, if it is a debuff it should be in the outside.
([Crit multiplier[dice+str+straight damage buffs]+extra dice]-resistance)×vulnerabilityxdebuff{litany}
([2[1d8+1+1]+1d8]-5)×1.5×2
([2d8+4+1d8]-5)×3
(3d8-1)x3
Avg 37.5
Michael while saying he things it is a debuff believes it should be in with the critical multiplier. Ie
([[Crit multiplier+buff{litany}][dice+str+straight damage buffs]+extra dice]-resistance)×vulnerability
([2+1[1d8+1+1]+1d8]-5)×1.5
([3d8+6+1d8]-5)×1.5
(4d8+1)x1.5
Avg 28.5
This is why my group is hoping for an official ruling because it makes a pretty significant difference in damage depending on the situtation. (I think I did the calculations right, but it should at least be close enough to demonstrate the point)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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I think it should work like a charging lance + Spirited Charge combo (i.e. use the multiplication stacking rules).
I think it should work like a charging lance + Spirited Charge combo (i.e. use the multiplication stacking rules).
Exactly one of the points I have read in my research, the counter arguement to that though is that spirited charge is obviously a buff to your character and increases your damage output.
Conversely we already agreed that litany of righteousness is a debuff on the target and it is stated "it takes double damage", sounding like it is on the targets end of damage calculation. If intended like spirited charge a wording something like "good aligned attcks deal double damage on the targeted creature if it is evil, for one round". Seeing though as wording is a bit inconsistent in the books at times it is hard to tell.
I see either side and I have heard explanations for both sides of why it could have been intended either way, that is why my group is confused and are trying to find something official.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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I think it should work like a charging lance + Spirited Charge combo (i.e. use the multiplication stacking rules).Exactly one of the points I have read in my research, the counter arguement to that though is that spirited charge is obviously a buff to your character and increases your damage output.
Conversely we already agreed that litany of righteousness is a debuff on the target and it is stated "it takes double damage", sounding like it is on the targets end of damage calculation. If intended like spirited charge a wording something like "good aligned attcks deal double damage on the targeted creature if it is evil, for one round". Seeing though as wording is a bit inconsistent in the books at times it is hard to tell.
I see either side and I have heard explanations for both sides of why it could have been intended either way, that is why my group is confused and are trying to find something official.
I think that you are looking for a level of nuance and detail that just isn't present in the Pathfinder rules. For all practical purposes you are adding together two multipliers, so use those rules.
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It works like a crit. No iffs ands or butts. It doesn't matter HOW or WHY you're doubling damage.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
I think it is the last step. You just double whatever the enemy would take. I think it is fairly clear but maybe it isnt.
I agree that is looks "fairly clear". The problem is that is doesn't really pin in with any other rulings. In the example I laid out the damage difference is about 1/4 damage increase, which for a one round move that only works on evil creatures if you have a good aligned attck and actually manage to hit on the one round it is active, isn't that big.
But for an optimizer/dpr olympics type person it can get much more significant. One thing of note was the idea that at level 9 there was a paladin build theory in the group that could one shot one of the "here is a boss that has been severely handicapped for you, don't worry about killing it just don't die and complete a different mission around it" for a 3-7 mission in its 6-7 form without the handicaps. Now that is above the levels of the mission, but as mentioned it was a much stronger than you creature I think the GM said something like cr 12.
If that is possible then it makes it questionable if that is the intent and so you go to the rules for guidance and in the rules the most pre-eminate rule seems to be as Michael is saying the multiplier rule...then as mentioned before if you try to compare them too intensly it looks like they don't go together...
soooo yeah depending on what level you look at it and where you think the wording leads you decides your interpretation. That is why my group is looking for something official.
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It works like a crit. No iffs ands or butts. It doesn't matter HOW or WHY you're doubling damage.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
You aren't being asked to apply a multiplier to a roll though.
It works like a crit. No iffs ands or butts. It doesn't matter HOW or WHY you're doubling damage.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
"...To a roll..." Some of the confusion is wheither it is being actually applied to the roll or the result of the roll I don't remember the effect exactly, but I think there is a boon or something that makes you increase the disposition change on characters of a certain faction by twice as much as your roll would normally, or something of that sort.
No one will argue that is not being applied to the roll, but the result of the roll, or else you would roll a 36 instead of a 18 and hope there is some sort of "tier" in the roll results that makes that worth double.
Similar here, the thought people are having is that "takes double damage" is to double the result of the roll, not the roll itself.
It is one of those that people can discuss 30 different ways and we just are hoping for a "doesn't matter what you think the powers that be say THIS is the answer" that way if someone say designs a character around it and we run into them at a con or they are visiting town then we have a source to be "that guy" instead of just being the mean GM/group that told the person his/her whole character build was wrong and have him/her go to the next game with a different group and get something different (which they can't get the spell till level 7 anyways so they are likely rather invested in there character at that point so it won't likely be easy to take).
I mean within our group we can be happy with the consensus, and basically "house rule" it until otherwise informed by officials, its just if you go outside that group we want to make sure it is consistent and not really argueable.
Your damage was rolled was it not?
Plus the target gets sr and a will save.
Works like a crit like others said before.
Good luck with official ruling.
That is one of the arguements I have actually seen for the spell being more powerful in its damage calculation part, is that a paladin with caster level being -3 and that only be a level 2 spell will have a serious problem even getting the spell onto anything strong enough he will actually want/need that damage on and so unless he is lucky or built in spellcasting (meaning likely not a lot of offense for it to boost) then he won't be "doubling" anything anyways.
Your damage was rolled was it not?
Base damage is rolled then the resistance and/or vulnerabilities are applied and the result damage applied.
If it is not clear I am trying to play devil's advocate on everyone's thoughts to exemplify why our group is looking for an official ruling.
Base damage is rolled then the resistance and/or vulnerabilities are applied and the result damage applied.
That is a complete total and utter non argument since that's exactly what happens with all of the other damage.
If it is not clear I am trying to play devil's advocate on everyone's thoughts to exemplify why our group is looking for an official ruling.
license to devils advocate revoked.
You do not need an official ruling
Its raw
Its rai
Its in line with the power of the spell
there is no reason to try to cheese the system more through rules lawyering.
Multiplying rules tell us then when you multiply a multiplier you instead subtract 1 from the new multiplier and add it to the original multiplier.
This applies in all situation of more than one multiplier, not just on crits and would apply in this situation too.
It is taking double. You aren't dealing double. I feel there is a difference and mechanically there is but feel free to just clarify before each game you play. Either way you are going to get a decent boost from it.
I agree with you that I feel there is a difference, but as I think everyone else is pointing out, rules wise there is nothing that distinguishes the two so therefore it has to function like damage dealt and wraps into the multiplier rule.
By the way here is the other half of the multiplying damage rule that no one has quoted yet which sounds a little more broad and all inclusive to the conversation.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
You aren't being asked to apply a multiplier to a roll though.That is the finest of distinctions so as to be paper-thin. You're doubling damage, which comes from a damage roll. Just use the multiplying rules.
2 ply resents the comparison.