Sorry if this has been answered somewhere else but I couldn't find anything specific. My Tetori monk is getting snapping turtle clutch before next game. Just wondering how it would work for the following:
Beginning of my turn.
Move action provokes aoo which triggers snapping turtle clutch. I start a grapple as an immediate action.
Does my turn end? Do I still have a standard action? Can I use it to grapple?
From everything I can find it looks like I could use the standard action. But would I need to maintain the grapple with it? Could I go right to pin or damage? Could I make an attack with it?
The grapple rules and charts all refer to the 2nd round of the grapple. So I'm not sure how to apply them. I think I know but I'll need to bring this up with the group and wanted some other thoughts on it.
1) You move
2) During your move you provoke
3) You start the grapple as an immediate action
4) You have the choice to use a free action to drop the grapple and (presumably) continue your move, or continue grappling and not move any further.
5) Your standard action is still available, you can make an attack with it if you choose.
Maintaining grapple is not until the next turn.
You do not have the option to pin someone in the same turn since pin is based on maintaining and maintaining happens when you start a turn as the grapple initiator.
1) You move
2) During your move you provoke
3) You start the grapple as an immediate action
4) You have the choice to use a free action to drop the grapple and (presumably) continue your move, or continue grappling and not move any further.
5) Your standard action is still available, you can make an attack with it if you choose.Maintaining grapple is not until the next turn.
You do not have the option to pin someone in the same turn since pin is based on maintaining and maintaining happens when you start a turn as the grapple initiator.
"If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
"Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."
I was rereading it to be sure and im not seeing anything calling out requiring it to be on a following round. Just that it requires a standard action. Normally something you would need to wait for the next round.
You have to understand the pov it was written from.
Grapple attempts are standard actions.
You do not have two standard actions per round.
So if you grapple someone this round, you do not have a standard action to make a maintain check this round.
Thus, maintain checks are obviously meant to be in successive rounds.
Is there some ambiguity? Yes, but the intent is pretty clear.
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I believe there is a FAQ that states you can pin in the same round as your grapple, if you have that ability. It does rely on your standard action still being available, as it is in this case.
Edit: Ah, it's only if the grapple is initiated before your turn starts, allowing you to make the maintain check.
I cannot find such a FAQ. The only one I can find that discusses pin is the other side of the coin, escaping a pin.
I've been looking around for some sort of ruling or at least an argument for one side or the other that makes a pretty tight case so I know how to present it.
I know it was written when it was possible to make more than one grapple check a round with greater grapple. But even that doesn't mention requiring subsequent rounds.
Greater grapple:
"Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple."
I'm curious if there was one to begin with or it wasn't something that needed to be spelled out until snapping turtle clutch came to be.
Yes, but Greater Grapple is talking about maintaining, ergo...the basis still stands.
Again, it is ambiguous but I think the intent is that maintain checks are the round after you initiate the grapple.
And yet I can't find anything that shows that intent. It could also be that it just happened to be when you could make the next check. Nothing has it stated and none of the feats mention it in the "normal" rules following them. Unless I'm missing something.
Immediate actions are similar to a Swift action. You can only use one per round but an Immediate action can be taken when it is not your turn. If you start your turn taking a Move action you might provoke an attack of opportunity. If the attack misses you, you can initiate a Grapple(Standard action) as an Immediate action(Swift).
If you don't want to grapple and continue your move then you can. You would still have your Standard and Swift action.
If you want to attempt the grapple, successful or not, and continue moving you can but only if you release the grapple(Free action). You would still have your Standard action.
If you want to go full grapple mode, on a successful grapple check, you would stop your movement and use your Standard action and Maintain your grapple(no +5 because it's not yet a subsequent round) to damage, move or pin your opponent as normal. You would have no actions left this turn except for any Free action you can take, like releasing the grapple.
Thats the conclusion I'm coming to as well. I can't find anything solid to say that's not how it would work.
Thats kinda funny, you say you do not get a +5 to maintain because it is not a subsequent round which is the line that shows even more intent that maintain checks are on subsequent rounds.
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Thats kinda funny, you say you do not get a +5 to maintain because it is not a subsequent round which is the line that shows even more intent that maintain checks are on subsequent rounds.
RAW vs RAI
Here's the thing... the rules say that Maintaining a grapple is a Standard action. Initiating a grapple is a Standard action. Since you cannot take more than a single Standard action in a round, the rules say you maintain on the following round by default... they do not include any abilities that mention Maintaining a grapple as less than a standard action.Additionally, the rules mention the +5 circumstance bonus "on subsequent rounds" NOT "when you maintain a grapple". It's that choice of wording in particular that makes me interpret it this way.
I'm not saying I can't be wrong, but the rules don't say that you cannot maintain a grapple the same round you initiate it.
Actually...in context it does.
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
The line before the +5 circumstance bonus and the line after are both discussing maintain checks.
You would have us believe that the line in the middle is not discussing maintain checks?
Seriously, in context the meaning is clear. Only when you take lines out of context do you wind up with this problem.
Again, RAW vs RAI...
There is no definitive wording IMHO that says you can ONLY maintain a grapple on rounds AFTER you initiate a grapple... nor does it say initiating a grapple ends your turn.
"If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
This simply says if you continue grappling then you must continue maintaining the hold each round to continue grappling.
"If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds."
Simple again... if you start your turn grappling then you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks against that target.
"Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."
Simple again... Once you are grappling an opponent you can maintain and preform an action. Normally, that is a Standard action so you wouldn't be able to do that until your next turn, however, feats like Greater Grapple allow this with a faster action... with the only condition of "Once you are grappling an opponent-".
So your response to my saying you aren't reading it in context is to...not read it in context. Got it :)
You cannot take each sentence out of context and expect to have the same meaning as when taken as a whole. The rules simply weren't intended to be read that way.
Anyhow, neither of us are going to convince the other.
Actually...in context it does.
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).The line before the +5 circumstance bonus and the line after are both discussing maintain checks.
You would have us believe that the line in the middle is not discussing maintain checks?
Seriously, in context the meaning is clear. Only when you take lines out of context do you wind up with this problem.
Maintaining the grapple are the only checks you make. once you're grappling you can make a check to continue grappling. Each round and on subsequent rounds. You only het the bonus after the opponent fails to escape. I'm not finding anything here or in the feats that calls out a requirement that it not be in the same round. It seems that if it was the intent grappling a foe would end your turn.
How would a maintain check on a subsequent round end your turn on the round you initiated a grapple?
I cannot find the logic that you are using that connects these two things.
The "context" you're referring to is when is talks about maintaining the grapple the following round. Honestly, all I see there is the Standard action restriction.
Nowhere in the rules on grappling does it say "cannot be done the same round you initiate the grapple" or "you may only maintain on subsequent rounds".
Like I said before, you may be right... but you haven't offered anything to support your interpretation other than "read it in context" for me to see the validity in your perspective.
It's my understanding that Greater Grapple allows you to maintain on the same turn you initiate a grapple by making a grapple check to maintain as a Move action. It says it allows "2 grapple checks in a turn", not "2 grapple checks to maintain in a turn". Initiating a grapple is a grapple check and maintaining as a Move action is a grapple check. It also allows you to maintain twice on following rounds to "to move, harm, or pin your opponent" twice.
How would a maintain check on a subsequent round end your turn on the round you initiated a grapple?
I cannot find the logic that you are using that connects these two things.
I'm only saying that if starting the grapple was the only grappling allowed that turn there would be something saying that or that starting a grapple ended your turn.
I agree that it is a little ambiguous but I'm not really seeing anything calling out the separate turn requirement.