4 questions about true strike magic items


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

The "ring of continuous true strike" is the sort of GM that no GM would ever allow you to just go to the local ringcrafter and commission; it would break the game immediately.

This is the kind of effect that you might put on an item with a truly nasty curse in order to tempt the PCs into using it from time to time however...

"the ring has to be worn.. where? And the curse does .. WHAT?

"you can't possibly be thinking about this...

"Its +20 to hit!

"not worth it man, not worth it...

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

The "ring of continuous true strike" is the sort of GM that no GM would ever allow you to just go to the local ringcrafter and commission; it would break the game immediately.

This is the kind of effect that you might put on an item with a truly nasty curse in order to tempt the PCs into using it from time to time however...

"the ring has to be worn.. where? And the curse does .. WHAT?

"you can't possibly be thinking about this...

"Its +20 to hit!

"not worth it man, not worth it...

Oh oh oh Tail Plug of Physical Perfection +4

Squeeeeeeeeee!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

The "ring of continuous true strike" is the sort of GM that no GM would ever allow you to just go to the local ringcrafter and commission; it would break the game immediately.

This is the kind of effect that you might put on an item with a truly nasty curse in order to tempt the PCs into using it from time to time however...

"the ring has to be worn.. where? And the curse does .. WHAT?

"you can't possibly be thinking about this...

"Its +20 to hit!

"not worth it man, not worth it...

The appropriate curse would be a berserking effect..i.e. kill everyone around you sort of deal.


Or a -20 to hit and miss chances your target is benefiting from are doubled... but you never know when it will activate when it will be -20 or +20.


Just to be clear I am also in the camp of "just say no to true strike items".

If you want lots of true strike Wand + UMD is fine. Quickened true strike? Well, ring of spell storing + someone to fill it.

Just my two cents.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

They are very hesitant to codify a rule that all items must be worn for 24 hrs before their daily effects can be used. A blanket rule might impair things that are not an issues In a number of items they added 24 hr attunement (recent Ultimate Equipment). In every case, they were items the guides used to suggest getting multiple.

There is also a FAQ saying if you take an item off, the spell it gave you also ends.so you can't use the false life from Sihedron Medallion and then swap it back for some other item.


My pricing for a continuous ring of true strike was as follows:
Weapon bonus from the table, (20^2x2000)/2 since it is only attack and not damage.
400,000.
Continuous CL1xSL1x2,000.

Total: 800,000,000 or 400,000,000 if you craft it yourself.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ckorik wrote:


True strike in general is only good for 'I really need to hit this attack' or if you can get it quickened. Giving up a standard is already a high price, especially considering that most melee focused characters will hit with a standard attack anyway.

If the item is at will the character will use it every time they open a door.

At will still takes a standard - while I'd not allow an at will version personally, lets suppose for a second.....

Level 9 fighter

Spoiler:

Level 9 test fighter CR 8
XP 4,800
Human fighter 9
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception -1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 81 (9d10+27)
Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +4 (+2 vs. fear)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 greatsword +17/+12 (2d6+22/17-20)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (armed bravery, heavy blades +2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +11; CMD 26
Feats Combat Reflexes, Devastating Assault, Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Initiative, Lunge, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Weapon Trick (two-handed Weapons)
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +2 greatsword, belt of giant strength +2
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Armed Bravery (+2/+4) (Ex) Add bravery bonus to will save, Intim. DC to demoralize you increases by amount shown.
Armor Training 2 (Ex) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Devastating Assault (DC 19) Full rd: make your normal number of attacks, all at your highest bonus, but only count one hit
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Trick (Two-Handed Weapons) You may perform weapon tricks with the chosen weapon type.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.



  • Normal Full attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 37.95
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 4

  • Full attack with True Strike on first attack(w/power attack):
    DPR - 44.825
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 3

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd attack(w/power attack):
    DPR - 51.7
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 3

  • Single attack(w/power attack):
    DPR - 23.1
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 6

  • Single attack with True Strike (w/power attack):
    DPR - 29.975
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 5

DPR gain from True Strike on first attack = 6.875
DPR gain from True Strike on 2nd attack (full attack) = 13.75
DPR loss from loosing a round of combat (full attack) = -37.95
DPR loss from loosing a round of combat (single attk) = -23.1

What we can see from crunching the numbers - is that using a standard action to activate true strike is worse in every case - however having true strike available for your first round of combat is worth 6.8 to 13.7 damage - usually on the lower end due to not having pounce. Is it an awesome ability? Yes - is it worth losing a standard for? No. Is it game breaking - nope. Is it game breaking if you use optional rules like called shot... most likely.

*EDIT*
note here that 'at will' and 'continuous' are two very very different things - one requires a standard to activate.

Continuous true strike should be the realm of artifact with horrible curse attached and such. My point was that even an 'at will' isn't as bad as it sounds at first glance due to the math - and that a 'x/per day' most likely isn't either.


if it's at will you don't usually lose an action to crank it on. you simply keep spamming it


BigNorseWolf wrote:

if it's at will you don't usually lose an action to crank it on. you simply keep spamming it

That works with things with a real duration (that's why at-will Shield should be priced like continuous Shield). True Strike is: "Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round)". So you need to spam it literally every round, taking up your standard action. Same for any round/level spell at CL 1. Opening a door/retrieving something from your haversack/anything that takes a move action (including possibly Perception)? Well, then you're not moving that round. Need a standard action for something else? No possible way to have it up. And it will be good for exactly one attack, at which point you will need to spend a standard action (in combat now) if you want to cast the spell again.

Ckorik did the math on a fighter and it's what I expected. They lose a @#$%load of DPR if they do this. They already hit most of the time, losing every other round of combat will never help their DPR.

Now, what I'd be interested in (and am too lazy to run myself) is if a 3/4th BAB class like the Bard or Rogue would gain significantly from this. The thing is, I'm thinking probably not. If they're built to fight, even at 3/4th BAB, I'm pretty sure they're still hitting more than half the time.


Unchained rogue (TWF, Power attack, dex based)

Spoiler:

Unnamed Hero
Human rogue (unchained) 9 (Pathfinder Unchained 20)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Hero Points 1
Init +6; Senses Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 10 (+6 Dex)
hp 71 (9d8+27)
Fort +5, Ref +12, Will +4
Defensive Abilities danger sense +3, evasion, improved uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 kukri +11/+6 (1d4+12/18-20), +1 kukri +10/+5 (1d4+9/18-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack (unchained) +5d6
Rogue (Unchained) Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th; concentration +7)
. . At will—disguise self (same form each day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +5 (+7 steal); CMD 23 (25 vs. steal)
Feats Combat Expertise, Double Slice, Improved Feint, Improved Steal[APG], Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency (kukri), Power Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (kukri)
Languages Common
SQ debilitating injury: bewildered, debilitating injury: disoriented, debilitating injury: hampered, hero points, rogue talents (combat swipe, combat trick, one of those faces, weapon training), trapfinding +4
Other Gear +1 kukri, +2 kukri, kukri, kukri, belt of incredible dexterity +2, 134 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Danger Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Disoriented -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes attack pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Hampered (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage has speed halved (and can't 5 ft step) for 1 rd.
Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Feint You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Improved Steal You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when stealing.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=13) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 13+.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +5d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Trapfinding +4 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

Here is without sneak attack:

Spoiler:

  • Normal Full attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 13.528
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 10

  • Normal Full attack (wo/power attack):
    DPR - 13.915
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 10

  • Full attack with True Strike on first attack(w/power attack):
    DPR - 21.503
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 7

  • Full attack with True Strike on first attack(wo/power attack):
    DPR - 18.640
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 7

  • Full attack with True Strike on first offhand attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 18.628
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 7

  • Full attack with True Strike on first offhand attack (wo/power attack):
    DPR - 17.165
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 8

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd main hand attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 25.128
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 6

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd main hand attack (wo/power attack):
    DPR - 21.265
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 7

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd off hand attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 20.795
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 7

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd off hand attack (wo/power attack):
    DPR - 18.790
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 7


Note that the biggest bump in DPR is again applying the true strike to the iterative - meaning that without a way to use the spell as a swift action - it is a minor bump in DPR. Also note that power attack really hurts a 3/4 bab class without other buffs or debuffs to help it hit.

(sneak attack die 5d6 assume an average of 15 dmg - repeat above assume sneak attacks on each hit)
Here is with sneak attack:

Spoiler:

  • Normal Full attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 28.528
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 5

  • Normal Full attack (wo/power attack):
    DPR - 34.915
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 4

  • Full attack with True Strike on first attack(w/power attack):
    DPR - 44.753
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 3

  • Full attack with True Strike on first attack(wo/power attack):
    DPR - 46.390
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 3

  • Full attack with True Strike on first offhand attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 42.628
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 4

  • Full attack with True Strike on first offhand attack (wo/power attack):
    DPR - 45.665
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 4

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd main hand attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 52.128
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 3

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd main hand attack (wo/power attack):
    DPR - 52.765
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 3

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd off hand attack (w/power attack):
    DPR - 48.545
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 3

  • Full attack with True Strike on 2nd off hand attack (wo/power attack):
    DPR - 51.040
    Average rounds to solo CR 10 = 3

Here we note that sneak attack is a huge part of the unchained rogues dps - and so the rogue should be doing anything in their power to attain that sneak attack advantage in combat - power attack actually hurts dps here and true strike (once again) only shines on the iteratives - meaning without a way to use it as a swift action it's power is underwhelming.

Conclusion: True strike on a melee character is best used on a secondary attack that otherwise wouldn't hit. There is never a time when using a round to cast true strike is better than attacking. True strike *is* a good way to ensure that a special attack hits (such as a tanglefoot bag or a debuff) in terms of overall help to a melee character outside of a way to use it as a swift action it doesn't add much.

Suggestion - magic item for melee that gives them True Strike 2x/day as a swift action (must choose to activate) if their first attack hits during a full attack action. This item would be balanced and highly prized by any character with iterative attacks....

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