Fighter Vs. Spellcaster

[_Ozy_]

andreww wrote:

Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

Emphasis mine.

You missed the next sentence.

Quote:

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Quote:

I just assumed since I wasn't actually casting the spell, I wouldn't have to pay the component cost. I would have to reconfigure his gear (which I'm not going to do, cause that would be time I don't really want to spend)

I believe this is the case although you can generally get a higher discount if you go for something like clothing which can cover many belt, boot, glove, chest, body, head and other slot items.

The crafting cost of the books are almost the same as the purchase price. You need to pay the material components. Each stat book is over 26k per +1 to craft.

It's pretty controversial to use unrelated craft skills with Master Craftsman and crafting feats to make magic items. Hard to see how craft (weapons) is going to churn out a magic tome.

[andreww]

_Ozy_ wrote:

The crafting cost of the books are almost the same as the purchase price. You need to pay the material components. Each stat book is over 26k per +1 to craft.

So they are, that does make a difference.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Claxon wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

1 hour/level buffs are allowed, as are spells like contingency. What would the sohei monk do to kill the wizard that couldn't be countered?

That's what I was about to say.

Assuming contingency is allowed, the martial doesn't just need to win initiative, he needs to win initiative and deal with the contingency and kill the wizard in one round.

But as it's very likely to be a contingency of "when I'm attacked" and "cast emergency force sphere" which will then give the wizard rounds to buff or otherwise act...this probably doesn't work well for the martial character.

What the martial needs is a way to activate his anti-magic item as a swift action after he closes with said wizard. than all those contigencies, buffs, and what not go bye-bye. Than he just needs to get the wizard into a grapple and choke him to death.

[Claxon]

Unfortunately antimagic wont do him any good against emergency force sphere, it's based on wall of force. It also blocks line of effect, so it doesn't even extend through the sphere.

[Grumbaki]

For a martial why not just play a half elf who follows the dark elf bloodline?

Noble Spell Resistance gives magic resistance 31. Deeper darkness helps safely close gaps. Levitate helps reach wizards above ground level. Faerie Fire removes invisibility. A good sword just kills.

[andreww]

Grumbaki wrote:

For a martial why not just play a half elf who follows the dark elf bloodline?

Noble Spell Resistance gives magic resistance 31.

Because it interferes with your ability to buff yourself.

Because many of the best spells don't allow SR at all.
Because SR31, while it looks impressive, isn't that high, especially against Spell Perfection using casters who are likely to blow through it without having to roll.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Claxon wrote:

Unfortunately antimagic wont do him any good against emergency force sphere, it's based on wall of force. It also blocks line of effect, so it doesn't even extend through the sphere.

It works well enough on the contingency being used to call it up.

[andreww]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Unfortunately antimagic wont do him any good against emergency force sphere, it's based on wall of force. It also blocks line of effect, so it doesn't even extend through the sphere.

It works well enough on the contingency being used to call it up.

This combat starts with the participants about 400' apart so it is likely to trigger well before you reach the caster.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

andreww wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Unfortunately antimagic wont do him any good against emergency force sphere, it's based on wall of force. It also blocks line of effect, so it doesn't even extend through the sphere.

It works well enough on the contingency being used to call it up.

This combat starts with the participants about 400' apart so it is likely to trigger well before you reach the caster.

The only reason to start it that far apart is to essentially throw the game to the spellcaster right off.

[Vrog Skyreaver]

_Ozy_ wrote:

It's pretty controversial to use unrelated craft skills with Master Craftsman and crafting feats to make magic items. Hard to see how craft (weapons) is going to churn out a magic tome.

And yet, that's exactly how the feat reads. Because if your interpretation was correct, there would be a caveat for having to take the feat multiple times for different skill checks.

Also, I could have just taken profession (item creator) to qualify for the feat, since any profession is allowed and there is not a definitive list of professions.

[andreww]

OK, here goes with a melee orientated druid who likes to hit people with a scythe. He starts combat wild shaped into a huge earth elemental. Strong saves (barring reflex), a decent AC, , immunity to crits, sneak attack and bleeds, 15' reach and a wide range of spells to control the battlefield give him loads of options.

He generally opens up combat with a quickened control winds (raising the wind level to tornado) and wings of vengeance versus archers or polar midnight and quickened deeper darkness using echolocation in subsequent rounds to gain blindsight. Again, this is a character who cannot compete in the initiative game so he ignores it in favour of trying to survive the nova.

Ancient Druid:

Gorag the Withered
Male venerable half-orc druid (menhir savant) 20
Timeless Body means he takes no aging penalties
N Huge humanoid (human, orc)

Init +4; Senses all-around vision, tremorsense 60 ft., see invisible and ethereal 120 ft.; Perception +47

--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 46, touch 15, flat-footed 46 (+13 armor, +5 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 insight, +11 natural, +7 shield, -2 size)
He gains an extra +5 natural armour from the half orc FCB while wild shaped which is included. Barkskin adds an extra +5, Seamantle adds +8.
hp 243 (20d8+140)
Fort +28, Ref +15, Will +28; +4 vs. fey and plant-targeted effects
Defensive Abilities orc ferocity, DR5/-; Immune poison

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 35 ft.

Melee +5 impervious phase locking speed adamantine scythe +34/+34/+29/+24 (3d6+27/19-20/×4)
This does not include power attack.
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.

Special Attacks wild shape at will

Druid (Menhir Savant) Spells Prepared (CL 21st; concentration +30)

. . 9th—clashing rocks[APG] (2, DC 28), quickened control winds (DC 24), imprisonment[D] (DC 28), polar midnight[UM] (DC 28), winds of vengeance[APG]
. . 8th—quickened dispel magic, earthquake[D], reverse gravity, seamantle[APG], stormbolts[APG] (DC 27), wall of lava[APG]
. . 7th—quickened deeper darkness[D], fire storm (DC 26), heal (2), quickened protection from energy, sunbeam (DC 26)
. . 6th—antilife shell, quickened barkskin, greater dispel magic, fire seeds, sirocco[APG] (DC 25), quickened stone call[D,APG]
. . 5th—control winds (DC 24), death ward, quickened faerie fire, fickle winds[UM], stoneskin, wall of stone[D], wall of thorns
. . 4th—air walk, dispel magic, echolocation[D,UM], flame strike (DC 23), life bubble[APG] (DC 23), spike stones (DC 23), strong jaw[APG] (DC 23)
. . 3rd—daylight, deeper darkness[D], greater longstrider[ACG], protection from energy (2), sleet storm, ward of the season[ARG]
. . 2nd—barkskin (3), resist energy (3), stone call[D,APG]
. . 1st—detect aberration[D,APG], faerie fire, negate aroma[APG] (DC 20), obscuring mist, stone shield[ARG] (4)
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, mending, stabilize
. . D Domain spell; Domain Cave domain

Precombat buffs are as follows:

Wild Shape (Huge Earth Elemental)
Greater Longstrider
Ward of the Season (set to Winter)
Life Bubble
Negate Aroma

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 40, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 22, Wis 28, Cha 11

Base Atk +15; CMB +33; CMD 50

Feats Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Endurance, Greater Spell Penetration, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Critical (scythe), Natural Spell, Power Attack, Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell

Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 to jump), Appraise +8, Bluff +2, Climb +16, Diplomacy +2, Disguise +2, Escape Artist -1, Fly +18, Handle Animal +6, Heal +11, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (arcana) +28, Knowledge (nature) +31, Knowledge (planes) +28, Knowledge (religion) +28, Linguistics +9, Perception +47, Ride +22, Sense Motive +39, Spellcraft +31, Stealth +11, Survival +34, Swim +16

Languages Aquan, Auran, Common, Draconic, Druidic, Giant, Ignan, Orc, Sylvan, Terran

SQ cavesight, empty body, half-orc druid, nature bond (Cave domain[UM]), orc blood, place magic, spirit sense, timeless body, tremorsense, walk the lines

Gear +4 ghost touch wild dragonhide full plate*, +5 wild darkwood heavy wooden shield*, +5 impervious phase locking speed adamantine scythe*, dark blue rhomboid ioun stone, dusty rose prism ioun stone, orange prism ioun stone, pale green prism ioun stone, +5 amulet of mighty fists*, belt of physical perfection +6*, cloak of resistance +5*, headband of mental prowess +6 (Int, Wis)*, inquisitor's monocle[UE]*, manual of bodily health +2, manual of gainful exercise +4, ring of freedom of movement, ring of protection +5, robe of eyes*, stone of good luck (luckstone)*, tome of understanding +5

Items marked with an asterix are crafted at half price.

[andreww]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

The only reason to start it that far apart is to essentially throw the game to the spellcaster right off.

I didn't make the rules. Also, archers exist and teleportation effects are easily accessible at this level. My dwarf monk above can dimension door adjacent as a move action.

Actually, going back to the start, the distance is determined by level, 20'r per character level.

[Paradozen]

Seems like Sohei Monk is the martial with the best chance at high levels. Pick up weapon training (bows), rapid shot, manyshot, far shot, deadly aim, clustered shots, and a bow with distance and seeking. Also include boots of speed. Round one you have a chance of winning initiative, and can unleash 11 attacks before the caster can act. Add brilliant energy to the enhancements and you might get through Emergency Force Shield (though I doubt that is on the prd, and thus is legal). Of course, while it has the best chance of working at level 20, it still will probably be faced with the problem of the caster having survived (akashic form, greater possession, clone in a bag of holding, bad luck, facing a caster with a lot of HP, etc).

[Isonaroc]

Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

It's pretty controversial to use unrelated craft skills with Master Craftsman and crafting feats to make magic items. Hard to see how craft (weapons) is going to churn out a magic tome.

And yet, that's exactly how the feat reads. Because if your interpretation was correct, there would be a caveat for having to take the feat multiple times for different skill checks.

Also, I could have just taken profession (item creator) to qualify for the feat, since any profession is allowed and there is not a definitive list of professions.

Yeah...but doesn't the skill have to actually pertain to the item per the creation rules? Unless you're using spellcraft...but you can't with master craftsman.

[Brain in a Jar]

Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

It's pretty controversial to use unrelated craft skills with Master Craftsman and crafting feats to make magic items. Hard to see how craft (weapons) is going to churn out a magic tome.

And yet, that's exactly how the feat reads. Because if your interpretation was correct, there would be a caveat for having to take the feat multiple times for different skill checks.

Also, I could have just taken profession (item creator) to qualify for the feat, since any profession is allowed and there is not a definitive list of professions.

No it doesn't.

The feat lets a character without a caster level to gain access to Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Magic Arms and Armor. That's it.

It doesn't change the normal magic crafting rules.

You can't take Craft (Armor) and makes Weapons for example.

All wondrous items require an applicable skill to craft them.

[Rhedyn]

Can the fighter start with his sword in the wizard's gut?

[Firewarrior44]

Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

It's pretty controversial to use unrelated craft skills with Master Craftsman and crafting feats to make magic items. Hard to see how craft (weapons) is going to churn out a magic tome.

And yet, that's exactly how the feat reads. Because if your interpretation was correct, there would be a caveat for having to take the feat multiple times for different skill checks.

Also, I could have just taken profession (item creator) to qualify for the feat, since any profession is allowed and there is not a definitive list of professions.

This page disagree's

Not how for each category of item there is a header Skill Used in Creation

• Magic Armor : Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
  
• Magic Weapons: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
  
• Magic Potions: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)
  
• Magic Rings : Spellcraft or Craft (jewelry).
  
• Magic Rods : Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Craft (weapons).
  
• Magic Scrolls: Spellcraft, Craft (calligraphy), or Profession (scribe).
  
• Magic Wands: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).
  
• Wondrous Items: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
  

So a skill cannot be used in the items creation unless the creation rules say it can, and profession (Item creator) does not appear on that list, except for wondrous items which would boil down to GM discretion.

[Athaleon]

A wise man once said:

"Really, the only thing the "my character can beat up your character" challenges ever do by presenting a clear and unambiguous beat down is to have the loser drop off the thread and pretend the challenge never happened."

[Avh]

Paradozen wrote:

Seems like Sohei Monk is the martial with the best chance at high levels. Pick up weapon training (bows), rapid shot, manyshot, far shot, deadly aim, clustered shots, and a bow with distance and seeking. Also include boots of speed. Round one you have a chance of winning initiative, and can unleash 11 attacks before the caster can act. Add brilliant energy to the enhancements and you might get through Emergency Force Shield (though I doubt that is on the prd, and thus is legal). Of course, while it has the best chance of working at level 20, it still will probably be faced with the problem of the caster having survived (akashic form, greater possession, clone in a bag of holding, bad luck, facing a caster with a lot of HP, etc).

Emergency force sphere is not in the PRD.

Fickle winds is, and will nullify the whole sohei build past the first attack using PRD only (which is a common strategy for a 20th level PRD-only wizard).

[Athaleon]

Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

It's pretty controversial to use unrelated craft skills with Master Craftsman and crafting feats to make magic items. Hard to see how craft (weapons) is going to churn out a magic tome.

And yet, that's exactly how the feat reads. Because if your interpretation was correct, there would be a caveat for having to take the feat multiple times for different skill checks.

The lack of that caveat doesn't imply you can use Craft (Armor) to make weapons. It just implies you can't take Master Craftsman more than once. It's always risky to assume that RAW = RAI but in this case the feat has gone a very long time without errata.

[Snowlilly]

_Ozy_ wrote:

1 hour/level buffs are allowed, as are spells like contingency. What would the sohei monk do to kill the wizard that couldn't be countered?

It's an arena fight.

Forcing an opponent out of the arena is a win.

[Kirth Gersen]

Jiggy wrote:

It was 7th level, fighter versus wizard. Want to guess who won?

:)

You mean a CR 7 PC wizard can defeat a CR 3 NPC warrior who happens to have a couple of random pluses and an extra couple of feats? Say it ain't so!

[Bob Bob Bob]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

It was 7th level, fighter versus wizard. Want to guess who won?

:)

You mean a CR 7 PC wizard can defeat a CR 3 NPC warrior who happens to have a couple of random pluses and an extra couple of feats? Say it ain't so!

Hey now, they'd have to have NPC wealth to be CR 3 at level 7. That extra money counts for something.

The system swears a PC-geared Rogue/Monk/Fighter should be worth CR=Level. ...of course, it also says that about a Commoner 6/Rogue 1. And that "buck naked" is worth -1 CR... but only if it actually hinders them, since otherwise every sorcerer would be -1 CR (...maybe that's why they take an extra level to get spells). And my personal favorite, that 3 levels of barbarian and 6 levels of cleric are worth the same CR to a Hill Giant... despite the fact the cleric levels would actually provide more BAB, more HP, same skills, better saves, and #@$%ing 3rd level spellcasting.

CR is awful, is what I'm saying. Judging PC arena combatants is just one of the many ways it falls apart.

[Bandw2]

everytime this kind of thing happens no one actually posts a fighter build...

[Bandw2]

Snowlilly wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

1 hour/level buffs are allowed, as are spells like contingency. What would the sohei monk do to kill the wizard that couldn't be countered?

It's an arena fight.

Forcing an opponent out of the arena is a win.

not necessarily, some arena fights have a pause until the combatant can re-enter the arena. some arena are designed so that gettign knocked out is impossible, such as the Colosseum in Rome.

[Bob Bob Bob]

I actually see like... three? fighter builds. Of different levels and degrees of seriousness, but they certainly exist. Just not from the OP, who hasn't posted anything in three days.

[Firewarrior44]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

It was 7th level, fighter versus wizard. Want to guess who won?

:)

You mean a CR 7 PC wizard can defeat a CR 3 NPC warrior who happens to have a couple of random pluses and an extra couple of feats? Say it ain't so!

It's worse than that because a warrior 7 in Pathfinder is actually a CR 5 creature

CRB, Gamemastering: Adding NPC's wrote:

A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2

Which also means you get s+~* like the King NPC , which is apparently a CR 14 creature / foe ...

[Zombie Boots]

Oliver Veyrac wrote:

Tuesday, 04:55 pm: I will be posting my fighter here this evening.

Did this happen already? Are we still waiting? Is there a post by post somewhere?

[Tarantula]

What about unchained combat tactics stamina pool? Its on the prd, so in the allowed sources, fighters get it for free. If the fighter takes improved initiative, he can spend 10 stamina to treat his die as rolling a 20, putting any fighter (or character who burns a feat on combat stamina) into the initiative game with the diviner wizards again.

[Tarantula]

wraithstrike wrote:

I ran one of these by PbP before, and everyone submitted their characters to the GM, and then he submitted them to the "combat thread". That way nobody could metagame.

I think the OP should put a deadline on things by saying 1st level combatants need to be submitted by ____. The same goes for certain other levels.

I would do levels 1, 7, 13, 20. If he doesn't make things less free-form nothing might ever get done.

This sounds like the way to do it. Or if you're willing to run another one I'd love to participate.

[Sauce987654321]

Firewarrior44 wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

It was 7th level, fighter versus wizard. Want to guess who won?

:)

You mean a CR 7 PC wizard can defeat a CR 3 NPC warrior who happens to have a couple of random pluses and an extra couple of feats? Say it ain't so!

It's worse than that because a warrior 7 in Pathfinder is actually a CR 5 creature

CRB, Gamemastering: Adding NPC's wrote:

A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2

Which also means you get s%#~ like the King NPC , which is apparently a CR 14 creature / foe ...

That CR 14 is more like a CR 6 or 7. That's the worst CR 14 challenge ever.

[Firewarrior44]

Sauce987654321 wrote:

Firewarrior44 wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

It was 7th level, fighter versus wizard. Want to guess who won?

:)

You mean a CR 7 PC wizard can defeat a CR 3 NPC warrior who happens to have a couple of random pluses and an extra couple of feats? Say it ain't so!

It's worse than that because a warrior 7 in Pathfinder is actually a CR 5 creature

CRB, Gamemastering: Adding NPC's wrote:

A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2

Which also means you get s%#~ like the King NPC , which is apparently a CR 14 creature / foe ...

That CR 14 is more like a CR 6 or 7. That's the worst CR 14 challenge ever.

Yup it's why Kirths houserule on it makes about 1000% more sense.

NPC levels = 0.5 CR and then a flat -1 after that (because of reduced wealth). So your level 1 warrior is still CR 1/3 and your level 16 Aristocrat king is CR 7.

Or as in his original post a level 7 warrior with PC wealth is is CR 3.5 -> 3

[Blackwaltzomega]

Firewarrior44 wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

It was 7th level, fighter versus wizard. Want to guess who won?

:)

You mean a CR 7 PC wizard can defeat a CR 3 NPC warrior who happens to have a couple of random pluses and an extra couple of feats? Say it ain't so!

It's worse than that because a warrior 7 in Pathfinder is actually a CR 5 creature

CRB, Gamemastering: Adding NPC's wrote:

A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2

Which also means you get s&&$ like the King NPC , which is apparently a CR 14 creature / foe ...

Did...did someone seriously think that guy by himself is CR14? With those saves and HP I'd risk losing five or so of those guys in one round to a mid-level arcanist one of my friends ran if she could line 'em up right. For god's sake, with his strength score and reflex save this guy is begging for his life to escape a single Create Pit spell.

If a solo fight with a CR 14 creature is gonna be this guy or a Giant Fiendish Advanced Half-Dragon Tyrannosaurus I think I know which one's going to be my pick for something that will actually make it to round 2.

[Tarantula]

BigDTBone wrote:

cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone

This isn't in the PRD. Its from seeker of secrets. So not allowed.

I've almost got a fighter that can beat these diviner wizards in initiative, so every point counts!

[Tarantula]

Okay, I changed sides and built a level 20 fighter, but I'd like to do this PbP style where we send our sheets to an arbitrator so that there isn't constant one-upping on how it was prepared. We all know wizards thrive on knowing exactly what their enemies can do. Anyone willing to arbitrate?

[Balancer]

Sure I'll arbitrate, how do you want it to go down. This thread?

[Tarantula]

Not sure, what do you think is best?

[Crayfish Hora]

When you say spellcaster, you mean any class that is capable of casting spells, right?

Dude...synthesist summoner, any level. And not the unchained version, we're talking the original beast. Walk on up to the Fighter, "You ever been wrecked by an eidolon." And then you out martial him and he gets sad. I'm sorry Fighter, you're just not two people in one and not big and scary like the synthesist summoner.

[andreww]

Tarantula wrote:

Okay, I changed sides and built a level 20 fighter, but I'd like to do this PbP style where we send our sheets to an arbitrator so that there isn't constant one-upping on how it was prepared. We all know wizards thrive on knowing exactly what their enemies can do. Anyone willing to arbitrate?

I would be happy to run the caster side.

I would suggest rather than PbP, which can take ages, to do it in real time on a roll20 table. Its free and they are easy to set up.

[Tarantula]

That could work. I have some time today if you guys are available.

[Balancer]

I'm free for the next four ish hours.

[andreww]

I am in the UK so GMT+0 so that is awkward and a bit short notice.

I could do tomorrow evening.

Balancer, do you want us to send character sheets to you?

[Balancer]

Tomorrow would work best as well, I'm in New Zealand so coordinateing timing might be an issue. Pm me the Character sheets. Spellcasters be warned once you send me your list of spells they can't be changed.

[Jader7777]

I have a great fighter made to kill most things in this thread.

Post the build here? Ha, nice try skirt wearer- you can see the numbers when they're being rolled against your sissy little collection of HD.

See you on the battlefield buttercup. :)

[Tarantula]

Tomorrow is hard for me. I'm at GMT-6, and busy most of the day. I'll be free ~6pm.

I did PM my fighter though.

[Balancer]

Jader7777, if you want in on this please Pm me your sheet

[Bandw2]

just do PBP and have it over a few days

you're going to have to do best 3/5 anyway so that there isn't flukes at work.

[andreww]

Well I have submitted a caster to Balancer.

[Balancer]

Thanks for the submissions, I'll set a PBP and post a link.

[Balancer]

Here's the PBP, please post in the Discussion thread so we can keep track of who's going to be competing.