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I think the relevant questions can be stated as;
1: Can an item be given the masterwork property/benefits for a different 'item type' (e.g. masterwork weapon thieves' tools) or is there only one 'masterwork' property which provides different benefits based on the 'item type'?
2: Can an item be given an enhancement bonus for a different 'item type' (e.g. shield with a +3 weapon enhancement bonus) or is there only one 'enhancement' property which provides different benefits based on the 'item type'?
3: Can items that are neither weapons nor armor/shields (e.g. masterwork thieves' tools) be given an enhancement bonus?
My answers;
1: There is only one masterwork property, which gives different benefits based on the 'base type' of the item. This is stated for masterwork armor/shields being enchanted as weapons and it seems logical to extend it to all cases.
2: I lean towards there being separate weapon and armor/shield enhancement bonus types which could potentially both be added to the same item. However, the one example I know of (Hand of the Inheritor in AP 26) has a shield with magic weapon special abilities and a shield enhancement bonus... no weapon enhancement bonus.
3: Yes, weapon and armor/shield enhancement bonuses can be added to other item types. There are numerous examples of this; Bracers of Armor, Mattock of the Titans, various magic Rods & Staves which are also enchanted as weapons, et cetera.
Post Script: And definitive answers on item 2 were just posted in another thread;
The consensus on Improvised weapons appears thus, the label of improvised disqualifies it as belonging to the weapon category. Special materials would allow an improvised weapon to overcome DR.
On the first post that quoted masterworking; weapons that are masterworked gain a +1 to hit, other items not labelled as weapons do NOT gain this +1 to hit. Masterworking as seen in the many specific examples (thieves tools, armor, kits, etc), confers a +bonus to the designed task.
If an item is created for a specific task, such as a battle chair (Seems an oddly popular example), then it is not by definition improvised, so the matter is irrelevant. It becomes a weapon, as it was designed to fill the role of weapon, it just becomes a better version of a battle chair combat weapon.
Enchantments can be applied to non weapon items, but as the defending FAQ shows, unless it is capable of being used in its intended manor, under its intended nature, the effect cannot be used.
This means using a shield in an improvised role to strike as a club of equal size and weight is not a BASH (Thus -4), the defending property would not activate, as it EXPLICITLY ONLY APPLIES TO BASHING, not to any improvised use of the shield. Improvising the use results in negating the enchantment.
Using a +1 flaming burst dagger to cook dinner will not impart a +1 bonus to profession (Chef). (But it would make supper quick and easy if you did attack object on potato, and cleave bacon).
A door enchanted with defending; if it cannot be wielded and a player cannot attack with it, then it cannot utilize the defending enchantment. (The shield must be made into a weapon proper before it can be used to activate the enchantment property).
The door would potentially glow, and have greater HP, but no other capabilities beyond that.
Enchanted items that are not weapons, would still strike incorporeals, and it seems they would still be capable of overcoming DR (As even a cold iron piton can harm fae).
I like the idea of improvised fighters, a brawler or investigator that can use whatever is at hand to do harm, but the items are NOT weapons, they are items used to do harm as per the improvised rules.
The consensus on Improvised weapons appears thus, the label of improvised disqualifies it as belonging to the weapon category. Special materials would allow an improvised weapon to overcome DR.
On the first post that quoted masterworking; weapons that are masterworked gain a +1 to hit, other items not labelled as weapons do NOT gain this +1 to hit. Masterworking as seen in the many specific examples (thieves tools, armor, kits, etc), confers a +bonus to the designed task.If an item is created for a specific task, such as a battle chair (Seems an oddly popular example), then it is not by definition improvised, so the matter is irrelevant. It becomes a weapon, as it was designed to fill the role of weapon, it just becomes a better version of a battle chair combat weapon.
Enchantments can be applied to non weapon items, but as the defending FAQ shows, unless it is capable of being used in its intended manor, under its intended nature, the effect cannot be used.
This means using a shield in an improvised role to strike as a club of equal size and weight is not a BASH (Thus -4), the defending property would not activate, as it EXPLICITLY ONLY APPLIES TO BASHING, not to any improvised use of the shield. Improvising the use results in negating the enchantment.
Using a +1 flaming burst dagger to cook dinner will not impart a +1 bonus to profession (Chef). (But it would make supper quick and easy if you did attack object on potato, and cleave bacon).A door enchanted with defending; if it cannot be wielded and a player cannot attack with it, then it cannot utilize the defending enchantment. (The shield must be made into a weapon proper before it can be used to activate the enchantment property).
The door would potentially glow, and have greater HP, but no other capabilities beyond that.Enchanted items that are not weapons, would still strike incorporeals, and it seems they would still be capable of overcoming DR (As even a cold iron piton can harm fae).
I like the idea of...
All good examples, but in order to Enchant something, it needs to be Masterwork first.So it would need to be a MWK Door in order to get a +1 and Defending on the Door. In which case does the Door count as a Masterwork Weapon or does a Masterwork Tool count as Masterwork for this?
All good examples, but in order to Enchant something, it needs to be Masterwork first.So it would need to be a MWK Door in order to get a +1 and Defending on the Door. In which case does the Door count as a Masterwork Weapon or does a Masterwork Tool count as Masterwork for this?
To be enchanted to gain enchantments as a weapon it has to be a Masterwork Weapon, not just be masterwork. So it goes back to "the label of improvised disqualifies it as belonging to the weapon category", so you wouldn't be able to have the +1 Defending Door used in the example if you agree with that interpretation.
The combat scabbard is on the weapons table and is also improvised.
I'm aware. It lists itself as an exception, and thus is an exception.
Though in the post I just made I specifically said "if you agree with that interpretation" to avoid bringing up things that have already been discussed to futility.
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To be enchanted to gain enchantments as a weapon it has to be a Masterwork Weapon, not just be masterwork.
This isn't true for armor and shields being enchanted as weapons, so I suspect it wouldn't be for other items either.
Armor and shields CANNOT be made 'masterwork weapons';
So far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a 'masterwork armor' or 'masterwork weapon' property. Rather, there is a 'masterwork' property which has different effects for weapons, armor, and other items. Armor or shields with the masterwork property can be enchanted... as magic armor, magic weapons, wondrous items, or any combination of the above.
This isn't true for armor and shields being enchanted as weapons, so I suspect it wouldn't be for other items either. Armor and shields CANNOT be made 'masterwork weapons';
I think you've misunderstood me since my interpretation is partially based on the fact that armour and shields cannot be made masterwork weapons.
So far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a 'masterwork armor' or 'masterwork weapon' property. Rather, there is a 'masterwork' property which has different effects for weapons, armor, and other items.
Sort of, but not exactly. I mean, masterwork longsword benefits are rather different to masterwork thieves tools or masterwork tower shield. They all represent that it has been designed well, but their is no sign that a masterwork shield counts as a masterwork weapon since the game goes out of it's way to say it isn't a masterwork weapon.
Armor or shields with the masterwork property can be enchanted... as magic armor, magic weapons, wondrous items, or any combination of the above.
No. The CRB states that "Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon". As armor and shields cannot be masterwork weapons (they can be masterwork), they cannot be enchanted as a weapon.
As such they can't be enhanced as weapons because they aren't weapons. They are simply being used as an improvised weapon but their main function isn't for combat purposes.
I recomend reading CBDunkerson's posts about shields being Enchanted as weapons and how that is indeed RAW. Even though the shield is a masterwork Shield and gives the Masterwork bonus of reducing ACP, it can still be made into an Enchanted Weapon. A shield is quite clearly, a shield. Yet, in your example here, it could not be enchanted as a weapon when it very much could.
I don't take exceptions as the rules. Shields get shield bash and weapon damage and crit mods. I take them as exceptions. But if you think your masterwork spyglass gives you plus 2 to baking because masterwork means masterwork, then good for you and your cray ass games.
I have never claimed such a preposterous claim. I ask you please don't spout things I have not said as things I have said.
What I have asked is for clarification on the rules, and if you feel the rules are clear enough, and will only resort to more insults, I ask that you please find somewhere else to go.
If you wish to properly discuss, you are right in the fact that shields are a specified exception, but they were not always a specified exception, and it took clarification of the rules to become a specified exception. That is the reason this post is here. For clarification purposes.
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The CRB states that "Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon".
So, we have CRB statements that;
1: Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon...
2: A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
3: Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. (also this separate CRB section)
4: A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC. (also this FAQ)
These four statements cannot all be true.
If we assume 1 is true then 4 could only be true if you could add the 'masterwork weapon' property to armor/shields... but then 2 would indicate they get a +1 on attack while the two citations for 3 say "can't" and "never" on that happening.
If we assume 2 thu 4 are true (i.e. you can enchant a masterwork shield w/o giving it a +1 masterwork bonus to hit) then 1 cannot be.
Et cetera.
Personally, I think 1 is the erroneous item. That text is left over from v3.5 (just checked) and was, I believe, simply missed when the changes were made to other sections (and the 2011 FAQ on 4) to allow armor and shields to be enchanted as weapons. A version of item 4 also appeared in v3.5 (meaning this contradiction predates Pathfinder), but was rewritten... and items 2 & 3 are completely new.
Also, given that there is already a FAQ saying that shields can be given magic weapon enhancement bonuses and special abilities, it seems unlikely that another FAQ (e.g. 'does this FAQ mean what it clearly means?') would give a different answer.
Basically, at least for shields, this FAQ has already been answered.
The specific rule that masterwork shields can be enchanted with weapon properties despite the weapon part of it not being masterwork supercedes the general rule that you can only enchant masterwork weapons. It is only possible in this case and only because of this exception.
It works similar to the rule that you can only make one attack of opportunity per round. It is true unless something more specific tells us otherwise.
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So all 4 are true. Shields are an exception, and mostly due to the built in shield bash rules that allow weapon strikes from them anyways.
So... I take your position to be that shields, and presumably 'other armor that can be used as a non-improvised weapon', CAN be enchanted as magic weapons (so long as they are masterwork armor)... but nothing else can? Those are the only exceptions?
How then to explain the Mattock & Maul of the Titans? Masterwork tools, enchanted as magic weapons. Or various magic rods/staves... which are also magic weapons (or if you prefer, magic weapons... which are also magic rods/staves). Heck, many of the unique magic weapons (and armors) are, for all practical purposes, also wondrous items.
If these things can't be done... how do they already exist?
Because they already exist.
Never said they were the only exceptions just that they were exceptions.
In short you take my position incorrectly, or at least are willing to skew it to build a fallacy.Not one of the 4 links given state improvised weapons are weapons suitable for enchantment of weapon qualities. They in fact fly in the face of all 4. Meaning they aren't exceptions they are the general and follow the general rules.
As I stated above, they weren't always an exception. And it used to be a big complication trying to use a shield as a weapon with certain GMs. Once again, the point of this topic is to get clarification through an FAQ. As it stands now, the rules are hazy on this to many, and almost everyone has an opinion on it (Whether that be for or against it), but for the most case it just comes down to people reading the same words and coming to different conclusions.
If you think it is your answer, where is the hurt in clicking the FAQ button and seeing where it goes? Worst case scenario, we get an answer still, and the discussion gets answered.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So... I take your position to be that shields, and presumably 'other armor that can be used as a non-improvised weapon', CAN be enchanted as magic weapons (so long as they are masterwork armor)... but nothing else can? Those are the only exceptions??
I agree with this. It makes your 4 statements all true.
Here is a klar
It's enhancement bonus applies to attacks and armor bonus.
8,000 gp for +1 keen weapon
1,000 gp for +1 shield
150 gp for Masterwork Shield
300 gp for Masterwork Weapon
12 gp for Klar
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9,462 gp total
That leaves 2,000 gp for:
If the wielder confirms a critical hit against a creature that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of bleed damage.
In short, if you want a +1 to attacks, you pay the 300 gp for Masterwork Weapon.
You can't pay 300 gp to make an improvised weapon a Masterwork Weapon because it isn't a "finely crafted normal weapon".
Exceptions exists, as exceptions. Such as Living Grimorie Holy Book and Combat Scabbard.
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In short, if you want a +1 to attacks, you pay the 300 gp for Masterwork Weapon.You can't pay 300 gp to make an improvised weapon a Masterwork Weapon because it isn't a "finely crafted normal weapon".
Exceptions exists, as exceptions. Such as Living Grimorie Holy Book and Combat Scabbard.
Why not? Improvised weapons are items "not typically used as weapons." A chair is not typically used as a weapon. A finely crafted chair meant to be used in battle is still a chair that is "not typically used in battle." A 2x4 is not a typical weapon, but if a put a nail in it, treat the wood, and wrap leather around the handle it still isn't normally a weapon, but it is "better" than a regular 2x4.
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Because there is no rule to do so, so all the interpretation to allow that is based on your interpretations of the improvised weapon rules.
I'm saying that there is nothing that states that you can't. That much of the arguments here are simply "interpreting" it "wrong."
Here are the two arguments I see thrown around.
1. A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.
2. Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
Now I see people saying that imp. weapons are not "normal" weapons. I've always read this as normal=not magic, not as normal= not improvised.
The second point some are saying that it rules out all imp. weapons because it says that armors and shields can not be given bonuses to att. rolls. This rule has always seemed straightforward to me in that it is what prevents people from having a +4 (att) breastplate and saying that it gets to apply to their rolls. Note that an Imporvised "weapon" is neither armor or a shield.
Lastly I see a lot of people claiming "the burden of proof is on people to prove why you can enchant Imp. Weapons" but that isn't the case as it is stated that weapons can be made masterwork and then magical, the burden of proof then is to show that improvised weapons do not count as weapons.
Now I see people saying that imp. weapons are not "normal" weapons.
Well if they were weapons (not just normal weapons, but actual weapons at all) then they wouldn't have to be improvised since the improvised weapon rules are specifically for attacking with objects that are not weapons.
Another problem is determining the line between "weapon you aren't proficient with" and "tool not designed to be a weapon". Even though the penalty is the same for each of them (-4), some feats and traits work for one and not the other.
If a wizard picks up a table and starts trying to bludgeon people with it, the GM needs to figure out what kind of weapon it is most like. In this case, since it is a bludgeoning device too large to use with one hand, Greatclub seems the closest match. But wizards aren't proficient with greatclubs. So does the wizard take -8, both for improvising and for nonproficiency? If not, does that not mean that there is some level of association between improvised weapons and nonproficiency?
Yes it's that simple. He does take the minus 8 because of both improvisation, and the fact that he's not proficient with what he's trying to make the table act like.
Wizards simply are not good at melee, and not surprisingly, are even worse at improvising melee.
Another problem is determining the line between "weapon you aren't proficient with" and "tool not designed to be a weapon". Even though the penalty is the same for each of them (-4), some feats and traits work for one and not the other.
If a wizard picks up a table and starts trying to bludgeon people with it, the GM needs to figure out what kind of weapon it is most like. In this case, since it is a bludgeoning device too large to use with one hand, Greatclub seems the closest match. But wizards aren't proficient with greatclubs. So does the wizard take -8, both for improvising and for nonproficiency? If not, does that not mean that there is some level of association between improvised weapons and nonproficiency?
Yes it's that simple. He does take the minus 8 because of both improvisation, and the fact that he's not proficient with what he's trying to make the table act like.
Wizards simply are not good at melee, and not surprisingly, are even worse at improvising melee.
It would be a -4 as the non-weapon is the non-proficiency. It just uses stats of a great club, it isn't one.
Shameful Bump and added question, can you use abilities that state things similar to:
to grant any weapon he wields (including his unarmed strike) a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls
on your Improvised Weapons? I know a lot of people suggest going Sohei for Improvised Weapon builds, but if Improvised Weapons are not weapons, as it seems the general consensus states, would it actually be viable to take Sohei? Or any other Class/Archetype that does similar features (Such as Magus, Paladin, and some others).
I googled a bit but didn't find what I was looking for.
1. I do remember seeing some rule allowing a player to push back an enemy with an arrow as an improvised weapon in Melee range, (if someone can quote, that arrow while improvised is obviously making use of it's bonuses).
2. Also the scrapper Archetype Rogue can enhance his improvised weapon but that is a specific ability, rather than a general rule.
3. Then you can magically enhance a wagon or any other vehicle to make it magical if it is first masterwork crafted. But I can't remember a rule saying it boosted it's ramming damage or overrun attack roll (only that it added hardness & hitpoints as normal for objects)The first two examples support the idea that improvised weapons can be enchanted.
In theory all objects could be made magical, however if that boosts their combat usefulness is another thing.
A problem I see is if people would start to want to make improvised weapon butt attacks against adjacent foes with their reach weapons.Perhaps a FAQ that would clarify that an object in combat can only be used as either it's weapon like existence or as an improvised weapon, decided at the beginning of player's turn, could remove most shenanigans while still adding flavor and fun into the mix.
Considering I just said 'perhaps' and just intended to do it again might prove I'm arguing on the wrong side..
I'm too tired to come to a conclusion on that today, G-night.
Only about 6 months late. Mark Seifter gave his opinion (Not a ruling) on it, which was that you can't. Link to Response.
Well... You know a GM can create a weapon ? So if your Gravedigger character want to fight with his favorite Shovel you can ask your GM to create a "Shovel Weapon entry", I would rule you need a trait or exotic weapon proficiency feat to use it correctly and you need a special shovel design to improve the attack quality of a shovel...
Improvised weapon rule is designed for using in combat that are, by design, not been optimized to be a weapon... If you design a chair in a way that it is optimized for combat you've got yourself a chair weapon that you can masterwork and enhance for combat... You also need the training to fight with your chair... :p
A lot of weapon, especially eastern weapon, come from simple tools redisigned to enhance their combat abilities... The most known and obvious is the Kama who is basically only a tool to cut rice... Or the Scythe that was used in the West for cutting Wheat and so forth and so forth...
If you want your Scythe to be better at cutting Wheat you need to design and balance it for a special type of move that optimize the way you cut cropes, so you can make a Masterwork Tool Scythe that gives you a bonus for cutting cropes... If you want to kill someone with it you have to design and balance it in a totally different way hence you got a Masterwork Weapon that give you bonus to touch other people when trying to hurt them with it... ;)
With a weapon Masterwork Scythe you do not add the bonus to the profession : peasant, if you make a Tool Masterwork Scythe you do not add the bonus to touch ennemies...
Is it clear now the difference between a Weapon and an Improvised Weapon ? An Improvised Weapon is something that has not been designed to be a weapon and vice versa...
Equipment trick feat.
Benefit(s): You can use any equipment trick relating to the chosen item as long as you meet the trick’s prerequisites. If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, depending on which is more beneficial for you.
Normal or improvised. Been in the system for years and supported in multiple books.
I think the debate was not Normal or Improvised but more if I take this Masterwork Bottle made by a renowned Bottlmeaker and hit someone with it can I use the +1 to hit ? :p
And can I ask a Bottlemaker to make me a +1 magic bottle so I can hit with +1 touch and dmg with this bottle as an improvised weapon...Which the answer is no, if you use it as an improvised weapon no bonus, if you use it as a Weapon yes you can use the bonuses to touch and dmg... But of course you take the penalty for not being proficient with Bottle as a Weapon unless you've got this covered by a feat... ;)
The masterwork equipment property usually costs either +50 gp or 10 times the standard version. These items grant bonuses when using the item as the item, not to using it as an improvised weapon.
Adding the masterwork weapon quality (+300 gp) to an item that isn't a weapon is not addressed by the rules. We're squarely in the realm of GM table rulings.
Improvised weapons are not intended to be used as weapons, and generally cannot have the masterwork weapon quality.
However, if it's part of the PC's character concept to use an improvised weapon in combat regularaly (e.g. Tika Waylan from Dragonlance and her cast-iron skillet), then I'd allow the PC to craft (or have crafted) a standard masterwork weapon for the statstical equivalent of the improvised weapon. So, in Tika's case, I'd price her masterwork frying pan as a masterwork club.
Of course, unless the PC is crafting the item on her own, I would certainly require some roleplaying to convince a craftsman to make a special weaponized version of the item...
"Wait a minute... You want me to craft a frying pan that has a reinforced handle and is specially balanced so that you can whack people over the head with it?? Is this some kind of joke?? You insult me! I make the finest pots and pans for the greatest chefs of the realm! Now get out before I call the guards!"
I would also rule that some items just can't be effectively made into masterwork weapons. Those would be determined on a case-by-case basis.
Your best be there sadly is to talk it out with your GM.
I for one would be fine with it even working with your to reskin your weapon bottle as a club or mace for feat purposes. But other GM's might not allow any of it to be done.
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1. But if I paid the bottlemaker 300gp extra, instead of 50gp, asking him to make the bottle of masterwork quality for specifically combat purposes, would he legally craft me a masterwork bottle (for a cost of 302 gp)?
2. Said 302 gp masterwork bottle, could it later be enchanted for an additional 2000gp to a +1 bottle?
3. This masterwork bottle, is it still treated as an improvised weapon (since you're still wielding a bottle)?
4. This +1 bottle, is it still treated as an improvised weapon (since you're still wielding a bottle)?
1) That bottlemaker would "compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match", which would likely be a Mere club. He's make you a masterwork mere club for 302 gp (mere club cost 2 gp also) that functions as a bottle. If you used it as an improvised weapon, it wouldn't me masterwork because an improvised masterwork weapon is an alien concept.
2) Yes, your +1 mere club would function as a bottle.
3) It is a masterwork bottle for drinking and a masterwork weapon for mere club attacking.
4) No, is this really that hard to grok?
Masterwork Bottle made by a renowned Bottlmeaker and hit someone with it can I use the +1 to hit ?No because you paid only 50 gp to make that MW bottle and MW weapons cost 300 gp.I feel like a wordserpent for asking this..
1. But if I paid the bottlemaker 300gp extra, instead of 50gp, asking him to make the bottle of masterwork quality for specifically combat purposes, would he legally craft me a masterwork bottle (for under 310gp cost)?2. Said <310gp masterwork bottle, could it later be enchanted for 2000gp to a +1 bottle?
3. If said masterwork bottle still treated as an improvised weapon (since you're still wielding a bottle)?
4. If said +1 bottle still treated as an improvised weapon (since you're still wielding a bottle)?
As said per RAW an improvised weapon cannot be enchanted as a weapon and cannot be made masterwork as a weapon. Now :
1. Per RAW a GM can create new weapons. A GM can put "warbottle" in the weapon table if he want... Or Combat Frying Pan... Putting what he consider appropriate as entry in the table and giving it HP, Hardness and a price at his convenience (price should take into account that you can do something else with it other than fighting, like frying things or putting liquid in it without forgetting to put those specification in the item description).
Then you can ask someone to craft you a masterwork Warbottle or Combat Pan.
With a simple bottle or Pan, no you can't make it masterwork for combat purpose.
2. Again no for a simple bottle or pan, yes for a Warbottle or Battle Pan...
3. No since 1 and 2 are no for simple bottle. Now for Warbottle or Battle Pan nothing stop the GM to create en entry in the weapon description giving the bottle the possibility to be used as an improvised weapon but he should'nt give the combat masterwork bonus.
Used as a weapon yes...
4. Same as 3.
Don't forget the player using a Warbottle or a Battle Pan must be proficient with the weapon. You've got 99% chance that it will be an exotic weapon... :p
Though instead of Exotic Weapon Proficency Feat I could Authorize a Background Trait if decided at the creation of the character or a Story feat with the additional benefit you can treat it as a masterwork tool when cooking for the pan if you have cooked x meal with it and bash x creature with it... Well detail to be more thinked about the Story feat and how you gain the additionnal benefit and what it should be but the general idea is here... ;)
It's completely homebrew since it need a lot of creation by the GM, you'll never see this in PFS where the rule is : Improvised Weapon are not Weapons so cannot be masterworked as weapons and enchanted as weapons. ;)
I can't wait for this to get FAQ'd as a no, it doesnt work, instantly negating a ton of interesting possible charecter designs.