
Stephen Ede |
If I target some one with Mirror Image up with multiple rays from my Scorching Ray spell each ray can destroy a separate Mirror image?
The reason I ask is the ruling on Sneak Attack with Mirror Image.
Given that the Scorching Rays hit simultaenously then does that mean after checking to see if I hit the AC I make a single roll to see if they are aimed at the target or one (and only one) of his images,
or for each ray that hit I roll to see if it is aimed at the target or a mirror image and then resolve the effect before going to the next Scorching Ray that hit.

Stephen Ede |
Damn. I feel an idiot. Having posted this I've found a ruling that looks like it answers the question, albeit indirectly.
Since Scorching Ray is a single Ranged Touch Attack there would only be a single check to see whether the target or a Mirror image was hit.
Ranged Touch Attack Spells and AOOs: When you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch attack (such as scorching ray), and an enemy is within reach, do you provoke two attacks of opportunity?
Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity: one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events.
(Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack. It still provokes for casting the spell.
This answer originally appeared in the 9/11/12 Paizo blog.

Stephen Ede |
Ok, I see. You are saying that Scorching Ray only causes a single AOO for making a ranged Attack because the attacks are simultaneous. The same reason that you only get Sneak Attack once.
By that logic you still can't get multiple images with hits (missing could still get multiple images). Because the rays all hit simultaneously the target you selected from the images you can see. Unlike getting attacked by someone with FlameBlade that has interative attacks and the attacks aren't simultaneous.
It then comes down to whether you apply
"Whenever you are attacked"
or
"or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll"
The rules repeatedly emphasise that spells that do simultaneous attacks are treated differently from spells that do multiple attacks that aren't simulteneous. So Scorching Ray cause one AOO for making a ranged attacked for any number of rays and can only get sneak attack once. Which would suggest that
""or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll" is the more appropriate part of the rule to use in this case.

Stephen Ede |
No, you are targeted once with multiple Rays. Because of the specific exception for scorching Ray that single targeting requires multiple attack rolls (unlike most simultaneous attacks)
Most simultaneous attacks only allow one roll but Scorching Ray says in the Spell that in this specifc case you make multiple rolls, but it doesn't say that any of the other rules following simultaneous attacks are ignored, and the rulings regarding Sneak Attack and AOO's reinforces that.

Gauss |

Ok, I see. You are saying that Scorching Ray only causes a single AOO for making a ranged Attack because the attacks are simultaneous. The same reason that you only get Sneak Attack once.
By that logic you still can't get multiple images with hits (missing could still get multiple images). Because the rays all hit simultaneously the target you selected from the images you can see. Unlike getting attacked by someone with FlameBlade that has interative attacks and the attacks aren't simultaneous.
It then comes down to whether you apply
"Whenever you are attacked"
or
"or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll"The rules repeatedly emphasise that spells that do simultaneous attacks are treated differently from spells that do multiple attacks that aren't simulteneous. So Scorching Ray cause one AOO for making a ranged attacked for any number of rays and can only get sneak attack once. Which would suggest that
""or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll" is the more appropriate part of the rule to use in this case.
Each one is an attack roll. Each attack has a chance to remove an image. Without rules to the contrary this is how it works.
They FAQd the AoO issue because there is a specific rule that states there is only one AoO for an event and thus there was debate on whether a single event with multiple attack rolls was a single event or multiple events.
This is still multiple attack rolls and thus still multiple chances to remove images.
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss.
In short, you are trying to use a secondary issue (AoO rules) to determine how the attack system works here. This is not correct.
Multiple ranged attacks, one event subject to AoOs.These are the rules, there are multiple attacks and thus multiple chances to remove Mirror Images.
Of course, you and/or your GM can feel free to houserule it.

Stephen Ede |
In short, you are trying to use a secondary issue (AoO rules) to determine how...
No.
You seem to have missed that I am using Sneak Attack, AOO and simultaneous attack rules to determine how Scorching Ray interacts with Mirror Image.I would note that if Scorching Ray was truly multiple Attacks then you would get Sneak Attack on each Ray. You don't. Why? Because they actually follow the rules of Simultaneous Attacks, albeit with their own quirk specified in the spell description - that you make multiple rolls.

Gauss |

Once again, unrelated issue = Sneak Attack.
Once again, unrelated issue = AoO.
There are no general 'simultaneous attack' rules.
What we have here is that the rules state that for each attack roll you may hit a mirror image instead.
You are trying to conflate the Sneak Attack and AoO issues with this.
Let me put it another way, the Devs have repeatedly stated that FAQs have ZERO bearing on anything other than the question that the FAQ is specifically answering.
Based on that statement, you cannot use the Sneak Attack FAQ nor the AoO FAQ in this rules argument. They have no bearing on it.

Ranishe |

Logically, it is more beneficial for a player to get a near miss instead of a hit
I have a problem with this (admittedly rewritten by me) statement.
Also, out of curiosity because I don't know it, what is the sneak attack faq to which you're referring regarding simultaneous attacks? I also found a thread about SA with scorching ray that didn't seem to have a final response, though I find myself agreeing with those saying "1 sneak attack application per attack roll made."

Stephen Ede |
Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?
No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target).
posted June 2013 | back to top

Stephen Ede |
What we have here is that the rules state that for each attack roll you may hit a mirror image instead.
No it doesn't.
You are trying to conflate the Sneak Attack and AoO issues with this.
Let me put it another way, the Devs have repeatedly stated that FAQs have ZERO bearing on anything other than the question that the FAQ is specifically answering.
And yet they repeatedly don't follow that line themselves.
PS. Can you point me to a cite for that statement?
------------ Mirror Image
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead.
---------Scorching Ray
The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Note: You may choose to interpret it as saying what you think is means, and on it's own it's not an unreasonable approach, if you have no other data. But it doesn't actually say that and you are making assumptions as to what they mean and saying that anything else that might shed light should be ignored when trying to work out the RAI. This seem a poor approach IMO.

Stephen Ede |
Stephen Ede wrote:Logically, it is more beneficial for a player to get a near miss instead of a hitI have a problem with this (admittedly rewritten by me) statement.
I would say you have a problem with Mirror Image rather than my argument then.
The way Mirror Image works it's frequently tactically advantageous to hit the mirror images rather than the real target and one way of doing this is to miss by 5 or less.

Blake's Tiger |

FAQs only address the question asked and shouldn't be extrapolated to new questions.
This scenario is a good reason why. The sneak attack on multiple simultaneous rays clarified that you can't double/triple/quadruple your SA damage using such a spell. If you need fluff: you're either focusing on one vulnerable spot on one target to SA (thus one SA) and not multiple vulnerable spots on one target or one vulnerable spot on multiple targets.
Your question is more along the lines of using rapid shot against mirror image (multiple attack rolls for one action). While I can see the idea behind one image if multiple rays, it's not how it works. Each attack roll has a chance to hit an image or the real target. Think of the rays as sequential attacks fractions of a second apart. The images are constantly shifting. Again, if you need fluff: The first hits an image, pop, so it's not there a tenth of a second later when ray two arrives, hits real target, and a tenth of a second later another image has jumped in the way. Or any such combination of image/real target hits.

Blake's Tiger |

------------ Mirror Image
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images
Bold mine. In PF, you are attacked when I roll d20 to hit you. If I have three rays from scorching ray, I attack you three times. The fact that you are also the target of a spell does not negate my attacking you three times. If I cast magic missile (I know, has it's own ruling, but I can't think of another no attack roll splittable damage spell), you are the target of a spell but have not been "attacked."
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

Kazaan |
In most cases, we'll adjudicate attacks in series out of convenience, but in this particular instance, it would probably be best to adjudicate all attack rolls together. So roll all the attacks and then roll to pop images as if all images were still intact for all the attacks and then, finally, adjudicate the results; which rays popped an image and which ones found their mark. Unfortunately, there's no hard rule that allows you to deliberately target each ray at a separate image to burn through them; the rules are predicated on the notion that you're trying to hit the real target, not that you're trying to target each image once. That might be an appropriate use of GM fiat, though, because it's still plausible to try to attack an image deliberately; just because the rules are predicated on a certain default doesn't necessarily mean that your character is bereft of strategy. But if the character isn't familiar with the spell, make sure that you RP out the process of learning and figuring out that the extra images are just figments, otherwise it becomes metagaming.

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I have no RAW to back it up, but I would let the player choose. All of the rays will fire simultaneously, so I'll let them choose to target the same image with all the rays or target multiple images. Supposing there are 5 images, I would say "Pick a number 1-6 for each of your rays, and it can be the same number." Then I'd roll once for which one was real, and the bad guy would be hit accordingly. We'd still roll all of the attacks afterward, because they could pop images. Hits get dealt with first, followed by near misses, and if all of the images are gone before the last near miss, it's just a miss.
Pathfinder does not deal with simultaneous actions very well. So you have to kinda play around with it.