Sell me on Sword Saint?

[Neo2151]

Maybe it's just me, but Iaijutsu Strike seems horrible, and that seems to be entirely what the path is based around.
Complex Action
Only once per opponent per day, period.
Extra damage can't crit.
Take an AC penalty.
Seems like, "hey, you can have Sneak Attack! ... Once. If you really really really work for it."

How is this desirable? Sure, it's thematic for a samurai-styled duelist ala L5R's Kakita or Rurouni Kenshin copies... But mechanically it just seems bad. Like, if you wanna be a "duelist" maybe just take quick draw/something equivalent and fluff it that way?

Or is this a solid Path and I'm being over-critical of it? Opinions? :)

[N. Jolly]

It's bad, there's no selling you on it, even with the recent errata. Avoid it.

[Aaron M 324]

I really wanted to make a samurai but I didn't want a mount. So I made a sword saint. That being said a mount is immensely better, but for flavor I like the sword saint. Also, I use a guisarme as my non challenge weapon. If a strong enemy worthy of my challenge attacks me I can get an AO on them and then next turn I can drop my guisarme as a free action and use the Laijutzu strike to quickly get my weapon out and do a little extra damage. This only works if you can convince your DM that when you attack with the guisarme the enemy is currently "not your challenged enemy" so you can still do your laijutzu stike. I can't imagine doing this for builds that go higher than level 5 since wasting a full round action on this would mean I can attack twice.

[Cory Stafford 29]

I like the flavor of it, but the mechanic is pretty bad. You could use a naginata at first then drop it, challenge, and iajutsu strike.

[Leandro Garvel]

I wish it worked, but there are better ways to do the "one attack kill" build it's going for, and it isn't on a great class chassis to begin with.

Would you like advice on builds with a similar flavour and mechanics to back it up?

[Neo2151]

Leandro Garvel wrote:

Would you like advice on builds with a similar flavour and mechanics to back it up?

I won't say no. :)

[nate lange]

I think you're probably better off with a daring champion cavalier... you can still take the samurai order, and slashing grace lets you use all the class features with a katana. There's no extra d6s but stacking challenge with a doubled precise strike is pretty decent damage (and way easier to pull off). And if you really want something more in the iaijutsu vein you could also look at VMC rogue for sneak attack damage whenever you catch someone flat-footed and/or the vital strike feats. If you decided to take both of those, at 12th level you could 'iaijutsu' for 3d10 (vital strike) +3d6 sneak attack (with accomplished sneak attacker) +24 precise strike (spending 1 panache) +12 challenge +6 devastating strike +Dex/enchantment/etc.

[Kazaan]

There's one interesting thing I've noted for Sword Saint. The full-round Iaijutsu Strike can be performed using the Start/Complete a Full-Round Action actions.

With Start/Complete a Full-Round Action, you spend a standard action in one round to "start", then another standard action in the next round to "complete" and the Full-Round Action takes place as part of the "complete" action. The Start/Finish actions explicitly exclude Full-Attack, Charge, Withdraw, and Run actions, but Iaijutsu Strike is none of these (it's a Use Special Ability action). So you can move into a good position and issue your challenge in Round 1 and Start Full-Round Action, then in Round 2, you can move into melee range (if needed) and spend your Standard action to Complete and execute the Iaijutsu Strike against your designated target. It makes it a bit easier to execute.

[Claxon]

Can I sell you on not doing it instead?

It's super bad and doesn't work.

[Tyinyk]

Kazaan wrote:

There's one interesting thing I've noted for Sword Saint. The full-round Iaijutsu Strike can be performed using the Start/Complete a Full-Round Action actions.

With Start/Complete a Full-Round Action, you spend a standard action in one round to "start", then another standard action in the next round to "complete" and the Full-Round Action takes place as part of the "complete" action. The Start/Finish actions explicitly exclude Full-Attack, Charge, Withdraw, and Run actions, but Iaijutsu Strike is none of these (it's a Use Special Ability action). So you can move into a good position and issue your challenge in Round 1 and Start Full-Round Action, then in Round 2, you can move into melee range (if needed) and spend your Standard action to Complete and execute the Iaijutsu Strike against your designated target. It makes it a bit easier to execute.

This is probably the best way to use it to keep it from being complete garbage.

It's still bad, but at least it doesn't make the ability almost impossible to pull off.

[Varun Creed]

Maybe it's just me.. But I really miss the movement part of the Iaijutsu flavor.

If I'd GM for a player who wanted to play this archetype, I would probably add in. "At level 4, you count as having Spring Attack while performing Iaijutsu Strike, but you must move with the same restrictions as a Charge action."

... And then I read Kazaan's reply and knew this is unnecessary. :D

[BigNorseWolf]

Even one of the most un munchkiny people trying to role play Glats most samuraist samurai that every samurai'd bailed on the archtype after trying to use this ability

[Bloodrealm]

It's the only Archetype that gets rid of the unwieldy and flavourless Banner. I don't care if it's a downgrade; I didn't want to deal with managing the mount and banner, and gaining a cool fight-opener instead of just ignoring two class features is a bonus.

[Bloodrealm]

Varun Creed wrote:

Maybe it's just me.. But I really miss the movement part of the Iaijutsu flavor.

If I'd GM for a player who wanted to play this archetype, I would probably add in. "At level 4, you count as having Spring Attack while performing Iaijutsu Strike, but you must move with the same restrictions as a Charge action."

Or how about this?

"At X level, as a full-round action, you may move up to your speed and make an Iaijutsu Strike at any point along your path. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from the target of the Iaijutsu Strike. At Y level, you may pass through the target's space during this movement without penalty."

[Bloodrealm]

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

I like the flavor of it, but the mechanic is pretty bad. You could use a naginata at first then drop it, challenge, and iajutsu strike.

My Swash/Samurai wears a cestus to threaten while moving into position for Iaijutsu, and it doubles as a backup weapon for bludgeoning or piercing damage.

[Rednal]

I like the basic idea of the Sword Saint... but it needs to be better than it is, yeah. XD; At bare minimum, I feel like their strike needs to be doable more often.

...

Of course, that might be because I've actually practiced iaijutsu in real life, and one of the fundamental parts was sheathing your blade so it would be ready to draw again. That doesn't take very long for a normal human, much less a superhuman Pathfinder character. XD

[Neo2151]

nate lange wrote:

I think you're probably better off with a daring champion cavalier... you can still take the samurai order, and slashing grace lets you use all the class features with a katana. There's no extra d6s but stacking challenge with a doubled precise strike is pretty decent damage (and way easier to pull off). And if you really want something more in the iaijutsu vein you could also look at VMC rogue for sneak attack damage whenever you catch someone flat-footed and/or the vital strike feats. If you decided to take both of those, at 12th level you could 'iaijutsu' for 3d10 (vital strike) +3d6 sneak attack (with accomplished sneak attacker) +24 precise strike (spending 1 panache) +12 challenge +6 devastating strike +Dex/enchantment/etc.

Wouldn't Daring Champion take away the katana prof?

Also, what do you mean by a "VMC" Rogue?
Thanks!

[Rednal]

VMC stands for "Variant Multiclass", one of the options released in Pathfinder Unchained. Basically, it lets you trade about half of your normal feats to get some class abilities (usually not as strong as leveling in that class). Definitely more for people who plan their builds and know what the result will be than something to do spontaneously. XD