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So there is an inquisitor archetype that replaces one of the Inquisitor's judgement abilities with this:
At 1st level, a kinslayer gains the following judgment.
Slayer's Brand (Su): When using this judgment, the kinslayer gains the ability to brand undead creatures with positive energy. To do so, she must make a successful melee touch attack against the undead creature. This attack deals an amount of positive energy damage equal to 1d6 + the kinslayer's Charisma modifier, and burns her personal symbol into the undead creature's flesh, bone, or even its incorporeal form. From that point onward, the kinslayer can sense the existence of the branded creature as if it were the target of a locate creature spell (caster level equal to 1/2 the kinslayer's inquisitor level). A slayer's brand lasts until the undead creature is destroyed or until the kinslayer uses this ability on another creature.
This ability replaces the destruction judgment.
Here is the Judgement class feature:
Starting at 1st level, an inquisitor can pronounce judgment upon her foes as a swift action. Starting when the judgment is made, the inquisitor receives a bonus or special ability based on the type of judgment made.
At 1st level, an inquisitor can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the inquisitor can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The inquisitor must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again.
When the inquisitor uses this ability, she must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, she can change this judgment to another type. If the inquisitor is evil, she receives profane bonuses instead of sacred, as appropriate. Neutral inquisitors must select profane or sacred bonuses. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
I've bolded the parts im asking about,
1)Is this a normal iterative attack against touch AC?
2)Is this a standard action that just happens to involve an attack roll vs touch AC?
I suspect your misuse of the term "iterative attack" makes this more complicated than it needs to be.
You gain the ability to make the touch attacks as long as you have the judgment active. You may replace any attack you would otherwise make with your weapon with your touch attack instead, including attacks of opportunity, and you threaten with your touch attack even if otherwise unarmed.
You don't get a bonus attack beyond what you would be allocated by your BAB and use of two weapon fighting or spell effects, but you may replace any weapon attack with a touch attack (at the same bonus/penalty as normal.) If Two Weapon Fighting, you may instead wield touch attacks as an offhand weapon, assuming your main weapon is not two handed.
Iterable? not sure what the term would be. I guess i should have said, "is it tied to your BAB or is it a separate standard action". Anyway, you've answered it.
I don't think it's that clear. The general rules about Judgements say that pronouncing is a swift action, but say nothing about any action requirements of the ability thus gained.
All of the base judgements seem to be a bonus of some variety with no action requirements beyond those of the action (or non-action, in the case of the AC bonus) receiving the bonus.
Thus, we have to fall back on the general rules for Supernatural Abilities, since Slayers Brand is tagged as SU. These say "Supernatural Abilities (Su): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
I don't see any "as an attack action" or any other reference to action type in Slayer's Brand. So the safest or most conservative position is that using Slayer's Brand is a standard action.
I think it works like so:
The kinslayer decides to use a judgement. Pays the cost of a swift action, and selects the "slayer's brand" judgement. Slayer's brand is now "active" for the rest of this combat.
Now, she can use it at any time given the provided method of use: "make a successful melee touch attack".
As per the rules of touch attacks, you cannot deliver them as part of a full attack, therefore you must use a standard action to deliver this touch.
As per the rules of touch attacks, you cannot deliver them as part of a full attack, therefore you must use a standard action to deliver this touch.
It appears I was conflating the FAQ used for magus and touch attacks. I stand corrected.
Johnny_Devodo you have a rule quote for that?
The combat section is talking about touch attacks and spells. There is no general " you cannot deliver them as part of a full attack, therefore you must use a standard action to deliver this touch." rule in the book that I can find.
The main heading is "Touch Spells in Combat:". The subsections are also talking about spells.
The shadow demon makes touch attacks as a full round action.
I can't find the specific rule for it, but there's many precedents that iterative attacks are only for manufactured weapons, which Slayer's Brand is not.
Sadly, the only evidence I can find at the moment is a post from the man himself about a similar subject, where he states "Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)—touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way."
You didn't say interative attacks. You said full attacks which can apply to interative attacks or natural attacks from things such as dragons or shadow demons(in this case touch resolved ones).
The book only has natural attacks listed under standard actions, but " you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks" line in full attacks is likely what covers them.
James was likely speaking of one of the unwritten design rules vs an actual rule.
No, I didn't say iterative attacks because this ability simply is not an iterative attack. Nor is it a natural attack. Thus, like other touch attacks, it can't be used as part of a full-attack.
The fact is, in order to get access to your iterative attacks, you must make a full-attack action or equivalent with manufactured weapons. Slayer's brand is none of these things. It is a touch attack, and then it gives no exceptions to this rule of it being a touch attack.
Therefore, standard action to use, can't replace iteratives.
So you are saying it is a swift action to activate, and a standard action to use or maybe it could be a swift action to activate and use?
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There are still no rules cited which say touch attacks in general can not be part of a full attack. James did not provide any rules to back his opinion.
I am not saying it is not an unwritten rule, but if that is the case Paizo needs to specifically write that rule, and then say that some creatures have special allowances to ignore the rule because more than one monster can make full attacks as a touch(melee and ranged) attacks.
I mentioned iterative attacks because you said "I can't find the specific rule for it, but there's many precedents that iterative attacks are only for manufactured weapons, which Slayer's Brand is not."
Touch attacks however are not a weapon type. It is just a way to make an attack that ignores certain aspects of AC so they can't really be denied based on using interative attacks. A cleric has the ability to make himself attack as an incorporeal creature and they use touch attacks, but it doesn't mean he can't make iterative attacks.
PS: I am not saying that slayer's brand must use an iterative attack. I am just saying that a touch attack is not a classification in the manner that a natural attack or a manufactured weapon is.
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So you are saying it is a swift action to activate, and a standard action to use or maybe it could be a swift action to activate and use?
Swift action to gain the ability to use this attack for the rest of the combat, standard action to make the touch attack.
There are still no rules cited which say touch attacks in general can not be part of a full attack. James did not provide any rules to back his opinion.
I am not saying it is not an unwritten rule, but if that is the case Paizo needs to specifically write that rule, and then say that some creatures have special allowances to ignore the rule because more than one monster can make full attacks as a touch(melee and ranged) attacks.
I mentioned iterative attacks because you said "I can't find the specific rule for it, but there's many precedents that iterative attacks are only for manufactured weapons, which Slayer's Brand is not."
Argh, now you're going to make me actually do some research.
*time passes, none of which you are aware when reading this because you're reading the completed post*Wow. These rules are in no way explicit.
First, I tried to search for the definition of "base attack bonus"
Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature's base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Combat)
No mention of what kind of attack or weapon he gets to make with that.
So I thought, "okay, let's look for the definition of a full attack"
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Again, no langauge of what kind of weapon, except for "two weapons or double weapon" to point out two-weapon fighting method of getting an extra attack.
So then I decided to go down a tangent and take a look at two-weapon fighting:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
here, it finally gives the first allusion to even wielding a weapon at all, by saying "if you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
To me, this looks like evidence towards but something that would look like something to be quite contrived if they were using it as evidence by itself, which so far from my search it really is by itself.
In fact, the only exception to iteratives that I've found is the entry in natural attacks that prevent natural attacks getting extra attacks for having a high base attack bonus.
Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
This shows a clear exception to the general rule that was provided earlier by the base rule of base attack bonus. Instead of getting "iterative"(which hasn't even come up as a word anywhere as far as I can tell) attacks, you get multiple attacks for multiple natural attacks, which you are capable of using as part of a full attack.
So do touch attacks provide that kind of exception?
Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Quite a lot of language seems to exist, in fact, with lumping a "touch attack" into following most general rules of weapons. not only does it continually call you "armed", it also fails to call out exceptions for any of the general iterative "armed attack" rules, and it also fails to even call out an action cost for delivering a touch attack when it is not part of a free action granted by a spell.
So, as written, everything I've found seems to point straight to the fact that if you're given a touch attack (for example, multiple charges of "chill touch" or the "slayer's brand" ability or even the attacks granted by the spell "produce flame"), you should by all rights be able to treat them as weapons for your full attack.
To the best of my ability, I could find nothing that supports James's position except for the fact that it's James's position, which makes me believe this is FAQ worthy.
Huh.
Once again, a touch attack is not in the same category type as manufactured or natural weapons. It is just a way of saying "you get to ignore certain bonuses to AC". That is why it doesn't need an exception, and that is why a cleric using dust form can still make full attacks with his weapons even though he counts as being incorporeal. That is also why monsters that can use natural attacks, but still only need to target touch AC without needing some special rule that.
Otherwise the cleric, and monsters with multiple touch attacks would need something like this:
Unlike other creatures this cleric/monster can still make multiple attacks by using a full attack to deliver its touch attacks.
Such a rule would need to exist if what you were saying was an actual rule.
Also, once you have not put out any general touch attack rules. You have touch attacks and spells rules.
Melee 2 claws +11 touch (1d6 plus 1d6 cold), bite +11 touch (1d8 plus 1d6 cold)
Melee 2 incorporeal claws +17 (5d8 plus bleed)
Ranged 2 eye rays +29 touch (15d6 fire/19–20 plus burn)[/qoute]
There you have multiple attacks with the touch mechanic aka "touch attacks".As you can see neither monster is using spells, and they are not restricted.
You have yet to produce a touch attack rule that does not deal with spells, and has any limitations. I mentioned that rule you quoted before you made your last post so it was obvious that I was aware of it.
Show me where touch attacks are not just a variant way to target AC.
I've shown proof that nobody needs a special ability to full attack and target touch AC's by using Paizo monsters.
If two NPC's/PC's were to go incorporeal and fight each other neither would be restricted to only one attack, and incorporeal creatures can only make touch attacks.
As for your quotes:
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Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack...
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a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell
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Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
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Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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That is why I said there are no general rules. Everything you quoted goes back to spells, and they tend to use standard actions anyway.
I agree that it deserves an FAQ, and I just noticed you last line. Sorry if I am late, but I did FAQ the opening post.
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That is why I said there are no general rules. Everything you quoted goes back to spells, and they tend to use standard actions anyway.
Pretty sensible, yes, but I was struck by the distinct lack of a general action for making a touch attack.
If you're holding the charge to a touch attack, and it's not on the same turn as when you cast the spell, what action does it take to deliver the touch? The rules do not actually say, except to provide an exception to be able to deliver it on unarmed strikes or natural attacks.
So what is the exception excepting? What IS the general rule? If I am not given a clear rule on how to make a touch attack when not attached to a spell, what else am I supposed to do other than assume it follows the other rules of making an attack, including that it can replace a regular attack roll during a full attack?
I'm actually now of the opinion that not just this topic, but the overall rules of "natural weapons, manufactured weapons, iterative attacks, and touch attacks" need some sort of clarification to make them all work better as they are apparently supposed to.
Here is how I see it. You can attack by going after normal AC, or in special cases you get to go after touch AC no matter if it is a melee touch or ranged touch. I don't see why it has any effect on the amount of time it takes though. It is just like any other attack, other than the how it targets AC. Yes, I know I am being redundant
This is normally balanced by having monsters with touch attacks being able to attack once or if they can make multiple attacks, the individual attacks are weaker, or the attack bonus is not too high*. Even though they often have other abilities that make up for the lack of damage such as spectre having energy drain
*That is why many people have problems with the gunslinger. It hits pretty hard, and basically goes after touch AC.
Monsters such as spectres and shadow demons don't really do a lot of damage. They can still be dangerous though.
So what is the exception excepting? What IS the general rule?
If you are using a monster go by the stat block and normal attack rules. One attack takes a standard action. If it can make multiple touch attacks then it is a full attack.
If it is a spell then you go by the rules in the quotes you posted.
Outside of that it is hard to get touch attacks, and then the ability should be written clearly enough for you to know, but this judgement ability is not clear. Generally, SU's take a standard action, but judgements are a swift action.
PS:Touch attacks dont have their own general rule for an action to use. You treat them just like attacks that target normal AC unless otherwise stated.
It seems like the general consensus is to treat them as attacks? As in, I could use Slayer's Brand in place of melee attacks? (including full attacks y/n?)
That's not my interpretation, no. Yes, it's an attack, but it's like a held charge touch spell (not generally usable as in iterative attack).
So what kind of action is it then?
Standard action to make a touch attach with a held spell, so same for this.
But it isn't a spell, that doesn't make sense
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Supernatural abilities default to a standard action to use, unless otherwise specified. Pronouncing Judgement may be a swift, but what that does is grant the inquisitor the Supernatural Ability. "the inquisitor receives a [bonus or] special ability". USING that ability is a separate standard action.
That's not my interpretation, no. Yes, it's an attack, but it's like a held charge touch spell (not generally usable as in iterative attack).
I've still yet to see a rules quote that says a held charge takes a standard action to make a touch attack with. On the turn you cast the spell, the spell (usually) requires a standard action to cast, then grants a free touch attack. After that you are simply 'armed' with a held charge, and can use it to make attacks that target touch AC. But there are no rules that state explicitly, or even really imply, that the general rule for a touch attack is that it takes a standard action.
Generally this issue never comes up becomes most casters are 1/2 BAB, thus need to be level 11 before they would get a second attack (or haste, a much more common method). And even at low BAB it is rare for a touch attack to actually miss. And for creatures with high touch AC, casters tend to have more knowledge skill points and often know when a creature is going to be hard to hit with a touch attack, and thus will use some other spell.
So the original question, my take on it. It is a supernatural ability, but the activation is specifically called out as a swift action to activate judgements. To gain the benefit of a judgement you "make a touch attack" following all the normal rules for making attacks - whatever those may be.
looking over it I agree. You're just armed with an "attackable weapon". And since you can have it be a free rider on a punch I don't see why you couldn't make a touch as one of your attacks.
Ok, how similar is it to a weapon? similar enough to use Bane with it?
This seems pretty damn strong if so, maybe too strong?
At 5th level, an inquisitor can imbue one of her weapons with the bane weapon special ability as a swift action. She must select one creature type when she uses this ability (and a subtype if the creature type selected is humanoid or outsider). Once selected, the type can be changed as a swift action. This ability only functions while the inquisitor wields the weapon. If dropped or taken, the weapon resumes granting this ability if it is returned to the inquisitor before the duration expires. This ability lasts for a number of rounds per day equal to the inquisitor’s level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Would this change anyone's opinion on what action is needed to use the attack?
EDIT: Also consider that it is possible to upgrade it from a touch attack to a Ray
It's like arcane bolts from the vigilante archetypes. They aren't weapons so you can't select them with stuff that targets weapons like arcane strike or bane, but they are weapon like in how you attack with them, and thus follow those rules.