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Lets assume the target is the caster with discovery.
How do Multimorph and PAO interact? I'm looking for more RAW than RAI, but am interested in thoughts on both.
If the wiz goes changes from something with a long duration to something of a short duration and back. Elf (Original) > Human (Permanent)> Dragon (<Perm), Back to Human (??)
As long as you return to a form that's permanent with at least 2 min to spare does the duration change back to Permanent?
Your studies in transmogrification have increased your control over shapechanging spells.
Prerequisite: You must be at least a 5th-level Wizard to select this discovery.
Benefit: When you cast a spell of the polymorph subschool on yourself, you may expend 1 minute of the spell’s duration as a standard action to assume another form allowed by the spell. You can do this as often as you like, subject to the duration of the spell. This is a supernatural ability.
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (mercury, gum arabic, and smoke)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
Duration see text
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (object); see text; Spell Resistance yes (object)
This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. You can use this spell to transform all manner of objects and creatures into new forms—you aren't limited to transforming a living creature into another living form. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its transmuted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines.
Changed Subject Is… Increase to Duration Factor*
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same size +2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2
*Add all that apply. Look up the total on the next table.
Duration Factor Duration Example
0 20 minutes Pebble to human
2 1 hour Marionette to human
4 3 hours Human to marionette
5 12 hours Lizard to manticore
6 2 days Sheep to wool coat
7 1 week Shrew to manticore
9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew
If the target of the spell does not have physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), this spell grants a base score of 10 to each missing ability score. If the target of the spell does not have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), this spell grants a score of 5 to such scores. Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force. A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren't affected by this spell.
This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.
This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.
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Huh. That's actually a really bizarre combo. If there's no FAQ for it, I would say it deserves a request for one.
Going elf to human has a duration of permanent. So using up a minute of duration is literally no cost, which would seem to mean you can switch between humanoid races as often as you want, forever. (Powerful ability, but then, you did use an 8th-level spell and a feat to get it.) But once you leave the humanoid races, you're not permanent anymore and a minute of duration is a cost now (even if it's a very small one). But then if you go back to a humanoid race, using a minute of your dragon duration, then I guess you're back to permanent again?
Here's how I'd rule it as a GM. The time you spend in temporary (non-permanent) forms has to be tracked, call it a "duration pool" of minutes. (And yes, if your form has a duration of a week you'll still have to guesstimate how many minutes you're spending in it.) Each time you switch away from a temporary form it costs you a minute; time you spend in a permanent form isn't tracked. Once you reach 2 minutes in your duration pool, you can either switch to a permanent form and stay in permanent forms forever, or live your remaining two minutes in a temporary form and then the spell ends.
I kinda want to say the duration only goes down, never up, though I don't really have a rules argument for it.
So Human to Elf to Dwarf is all permanent, but once you go to a form that only lasts a week you're stuck with a week left, even if you go back to Elf (or Human for that matter).
Please FAQ
I kinda want to say the duration only goes down, never up, though I don't really have a rules argument for it.
So Human to Elf to Dwarf is all permanent, but once you go to a form that only lasts a week you're stuck with a week left, even if you go back to Elf (or Human for that matter).
I'd actually be fine with that.
The analysis I sent to my DM when asked what I thought.
My 2 Cents:
For the record i’m not saying I’m going to do this. Frankly I think it has the potential to cause more trouble than it’s worth at our table. This is more of a thought exercise. For our table I’ll most likely just use Polymorph Any Object as is and leave the durations as is.
Objectively speaking this is definitely a corner case. It requires a lot of specific investiture for one mildly useful, but not (in my opinion) ridiculous trick. Considering the power level and the tricks people can pull at this point it’s not as absurd as it would be for a lower level character.
Rules as written it allows a wizard to cast POA object once and with a modicum of planning always be able to effectively use greater polymorph. I think it’ll open up a lot of utility and maneuverability, but not otherwise change his combat tactics. Most of the tricks you can do with just using POA as is. All the feat does is save you from recasting the spell, which is definitely not useless.
Limitations:
- Caster only
- Must be wizard
- Must be able to CAST 8th level spells. Not from an item, not have it cast on you by a friend, etc. Must be able to cast it on yourself.
- Uses feat that can definitely be spent elsewhere and on more powerful options. Truename discovery, for example could technically allow you to keep a planetar on retainer. At this character level that’s the power level of tricks you have to measure against.
- Subject to dispel and similar effects.
Pro:
- Opens up a lot of utility - Air elemental type for fast fly speed, nifty abilities like scent and such. Again though, all of which can be done without multimorph in a more limited fashion.
- Makes the wizard slightly less unless in Melee combat.
- It’s really cool.
Con:
- Still a wizard. Low BAB, Low HP, traditionally low strength. Even with the added bonus’ using this trick for Melee is ill advised.
- The most strength boost I saw was something like +6, which is nice but not overly useful given the other limitations.
- Having to change to something humaniod regularly. It’s minor, but worth noting. You couldn't sleep underground as an earth elemental for example.
- Standard action to change forms. Could be worse, but you won’t want to be changing a lot in combat when your time could be better spent casting spells.
- Uses an 8th level spell slot.
It is a tad much, but not nearly as bad as it initially sounds. A reasonable house rule would be that the wizard has to recast PAO every day. A list of specific requirement, a very specific feat, plus the not insignificant daily resource of an 8th level spell slot.
Dot. Please FAQ
As suggested above, I think the sensible way to run it is shifting into a form can only lower the time you can stay in it. So if you change into something that has permanent duration initially you're fine forever, but as soon as you change into other things you'll only have a week or less and every shift will shorten it.
It's cool, but not particularly overly powerful.
The real benefit would be figuring out what manner of things you can shift into with a permanent duration and just shifting between all those.