Clarification regarding iterative attacks and natural / unarmed attacks.


Rules Questions


I currently have a Bloodraging Brawler that has now made it to BAB +6 and I am wanting clarification how natural attacks work for a full round attack action. Currently the build is as follows:
Str: 18 (22 raging)
Dex: 13
Con: 14 (18 while raging)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Traits:
Adopted: Tusked (1d4 Bite Attack)
Indomitable Faith

Feats:
Eschew Materials
Feral Combat Training (Claw)
Improved Trip
Improved Unarmed Strike
Martial Weapon Proficiency - All
Power Attack
Press to the Wall
Shield Proficiency
Simple Weapon Proficiency - All
Step Up
Weapon Focus (Claw)

I have calculated the following while raging:
Bite: +12, 1d4+6
Claws x2: +13/+13, 1d6+6
Unarmed: +12/+7, 1d6+6
Brawler Flurry: +10/+10/+5, 1d6+6

Assuming I wish to only use Bite and Claw in a full attack round action, how many attacks do I get? Similarly assuming I move and only have a standard action again only using Bite and Claw, how many attacks do I have? I know things get odd and complicated for multiple natural attacks that PCs have so wanting to clarify maximum and minimum attacks on this basis. Thanks in advance.


Full attack 1 bite 2 claws
Move and attack 1 bite or 1 claw.

Edit: Keep in mind as a Brawler Feral Combat training still doesn't let you use your claws in a flurry.

Edit on the Edit: Also your bite would be a -5 during full attacks.


Tusked is really weird.

Requirement(s) Half-Orc, Orc

Benefit(s) Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

I'm not sure if that's (badly) reiterating the rule for using a natural weapon with a weapon, or if it's literally a -5 any time it's used as part of a full attack.

If you have Bite Claw Claw you have bite claw claw on a full attack regardless of your base attack bonus.

You can also Left foot right foot Bite claw claw , but the bite claw claw all take a -5 to attack and do 1/2 strength damage.


I am of opinion that it is just a badly written reiteration of the standard natural weapon rules. If it's an intentional exception they usually spell it out.

-j

Sczarni

^ this is how I rule it as well, but ask your GM.

That being said, on a Two-weapon Fighting full attack you'd have:

Unarmed Strike –2
Unarmed Strike –2
Unarmed Strike –7
Natural Attack –5
Natural Attack –5
Natural Attack –5

On a Brawler's Flurry you'd have:

Unarmed Strike –2
Unarmed Strike –2
Unarmed Strike –7

If you really just want your first attack to hit (say for Stunning Fist) you could also:

Unarmed Strike +0
Natural Attack –5
Natural Attack –5
Natural Attack –5

And your best bet for having multiple attacks hitting is to go all natural:

Natural Attack +0
Natural Attack +0
Natural Attack +0

(add BAB, STR and other bonuses accordingly)

There's very little reason for you to ever Flurry. You get increased Strength damage on your Unarmed Strikes, but the three extra attacks that you would have gotten from Two-weapon Fighting would likely make up for that.

Flagged thread to be moved to the Rules Questions Forum.


The Brawler's Flurry really only adds versatility in melee combat full attacks to allow for a substitution of an unarmed strike for a trip attempt.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet's table is missing something important:

Nefreet (edited with STR bonuses) wrote:


That being said, on a Two-weapon Fighting full attack you'd have:

Unarmed Strike –2 at 1x STR
Unarmed Strike –2 at 1/2x STR
Unarmed Strike –7 at 1x STR
Natural Attack –5 at 1/2x STR
Natural Attack –5 at 1/2x STR
Natural Attack –5 at 1/2x STR

On a Brawler's Flurry you'd have:

Unarmed Strike –2 at 1x STR
Unarmed Strike –2 at 1x STR
Unarmed Strike –7 at 1x STR

If you really just want your first attack to hit (say for Stunning Fist) you could also:

Unarmed Strike +0 at 1x STR
Natural Attack –5 at 1/2x STR
Natural Attack –5 at 1/2x STR
Natural Attack –5 at 1/2x STR

And your best bet for having multiple attacks hitting is to go all natural:

Natural Attack +0 at 1x STR
Natural Attack +0 at 1x STR
Natural Attack +0 at 1x STR

That means, power attacking, against AC 20 you would average:

Two Weapon Fighting: 24.35
Brawler's Flurry: 18.9
Single Hit: 19.425
all natural: 27.025
(Does not include crits.)

(As your opponent's AC drops, Two weapon fighting becomes more feasible. At ac 17 and below, it becomes better than all natural. Conversly, the higher their AC, the more all natural outpaces the others.)


I always go with tusked is a normal bite, with a poorly written reminder regarding natural attack rules.

I did have a GM once rule that it got the -5 whenever full attacking, even if only natural attacks are used although it did retain its normal damage. No argument from me, that's what the feat if taken literally says.

I would expect most GMs to treat it as a normal bite, but table variation is possible.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

What I've seen more often is the 'natural' weapons being used as a 'backup' to either ranged or reach weapons or if someone thinks they're going to sneak past an AoO because of said weaponry...

Grand Lodge

Although some of us are a little excessive when it comes to natural weapons.

Claw, claw, bite, gore, hoof, hoof.

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