Combat in Fog

[Mrakvampire]

Hello All,

I'm a bit confused with following combat situation.
Assume that we have 2 stone giants and they are fighting in area with Fog Cloud spell. They both have 10 ft reach, so if they are 10 feet away they can technically attack, but can't see each other.

Question is. If giant attacks giant from 10 feet in cloud - he will have 50% miss chance, but will he get +2 to attack and deny defender Dex bonus to AC?

[Snowlilly]

Characters in fog are not denied their dexterity bonuses. The attacker does not receive a bonus to hit.

The giants could always try to use stealth if they want the bonuses.
/snicker

[Ascalaphus]

Fog itself doesn't deny you the dexterity bonus, but if the fog made you totally unable to see your enemy, you'd be unable to use your dexterity bonus to AC. Which 10ft of fog usually does (not all fog effects are the same).

[Ascalaphus]

Addendum: it's pretty hard to pin down a single nice rules reference to prove my assertion. I'm pretty confident about it, but the issue is a bit muddled between rules for blindness (you can't see anything), invisibility (enemy can't be seen by anyone) and concealment (you in particular can't see that enemy).

The rules for all these are similar; you can't use your dexterity against an attack you can't see coming. But they're not always exhaustively called out. For example, the blind-fight feat doesn't actually say all that much about fighting while you are blind, but rather refers to fighting invisible opponents, implying it's the same thing, no matter why you can't see the opponent.

This comment in the Blindsense section is perhaps the best indication of the general principle at work:

CRB > Glossary > Blindsense and Blindsight wrote:

A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

[Khudzlin]

They could (and probably would) close in and fight from adjacent squares. Natural reach allows you to attack up to its value (unless also using a reach weapon).

[CBDunkerson]

If they can't see each other, but know which square they each are in then yes... 50% miss chance and no Dex to AC.

[Kalridian]

One thing that probably helps you find clear rules: Remember that reach attacks are treated like ranged weapons regarding cover/concealment.

[ckdragons]

In this situation, would the attacker also receive +2 attack since the defender is technically being attacked by an "invisible" opponent, i.e. one he cannot see?

[Ascalaphus]

ckdragons wrote:

In this situation, would the attacker also receive +2 attack since the defender is technically being attacked by an "invisible" opponent, i.e. one he cannot see?

Well, being blind gives you a -2 AC, while being invisible attacker a +2 to hit. (That these could theoretically stack is insane.) I'd say pick one or the other.

[ShieldLawrence]

Ascalaphus wrote:

ckdragons wrote:

In this situation, would the attacker also receive +2 attack since the defender is technically being attacked by an "invisible" opponent, i.e. one he cannot see?

Well, being blind gives you a -2 AC, while being invisible attacker a +2 to hit. (That these could theoretically stack is insane.) I'd say pick one or the other.

Invisible is a very specific condition; the bonus only applies to your attacks if you explicitly have an invisibility effect.

Same goes for blind. You aren't blind in a fog cloud so no penalty.