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Not necessarily, especially in the case of ghosts. The creation of most undead is an evil act, yes. But undead who have become undead either unwillingly or accidentally, like Maghara? That's a different matter. Ghosts are one of the few undead that can't really be created, and can only come to be through a soul having both a powerful will and a task that has not been completed in life.
Creative Director
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The Doomkitten is 100% correct.
The act of intentionally creating undead is evil, and as a result most undead are evil, because they're filled with a burning desire and need to bring harm to life and to consume living energy and spread pain and sickness and so on.
But ghosts aren't usually intentionally created. They arise when a spirit is unwilling to move on, when a soul is not allowed to rest due to a great injustice. As detailed in the bestiary...
"Although ghosts can be any alignment, the majority cling to the living world out of a powerful sense of rage and hatred, and as a result are chaotic evil—even the ghost of a good or lawful creature can become hateful and cruel in its afterlife."
The primary reason why most undead (and even most ghosts) are evil is simple—that's the classic role they play, and the role undead are most well-suited to play. Look at all the world's stories about undead. Yes, there are examples of them being non-evil, but those examples are not the majority, and I can think of several that portray undead as non evil that are common targets of ridicule, which hardly makes them a good contender for something to aspire to.
For me, as creative director of Paizo, I prefer the stories where the undead are evil, where they propel horror stories, since "fear of death" is at the core of all undead stories. But there are exceptions, and in most cases, those exceptions are ghost stories. I can think of MANY ghost stories that are great but don't portray evil ghosts, but even then most ghost stories are about bad ghosts.
Beyond ghosts, I'd say that vampires probably come in second in the "sometimes they're not evil" but that's both rarer AND (in my opinion) easier to turn into something ludicrous than a non-evil ghost. (For the record, when I say good movies about non-evil vampires, I'm specifically referring to "Near Dark" and the Underworld movies and "Let Me In," but whether or not the vampires in those movies are actually good or are just not-all-out-evil is kind of a matter of opinion.)
Hey, someone else that liked "Let Me In", +1 for JJ :).
I would just like to mention, there was a certain PC game, from "the worlds most well known TTRPG" folks, which featured a ghost who was not evil unless you happen to be a jerk to her (and why would you, she was or still is, your wife. (for those who have never played it, play Planescape Torment, I promise you will not regret it, even if it does not use PF rules)
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Creative Director
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Hey, someone else that liked "Let Me In", +1 for JJ :).
I would just like to mention, there was a certain PC game, from "the worlds most well known TTRPG" folks, which featured a ghost who was not evil unless you happen to be a jerk to her (and why would you, she was or still is, your wife. (for those who have never played it, play Planescape Torment, I promise you will not regret it, even if it does not use PF rules)
I like both "Let Me In" AND "Let the Right One In" in fact, and often accidentally confuse the two titles because they are basically the same movie, but different in ways make each one interesting.
AKA: Sometimes remakes are as good as the originals.
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The T-Rex has excellent taste in movies :)
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I..uhh..respect the T-Rex's free will to enjoy whatever cinema he wishes.
Diplomacy, I's has it!
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The T-Rex has excellent taste in movies :)Does that change when I point out I adore C.H.U.D.?
For some of us that just confirms you have excellent taste :P
The T-Rex has excellent taste in movies :)Does that change when I point out I adore C.H.U.D.?
Don't most of us have at least a few "so bad it's good" guilty pleasure favorites? Mine are Super Troopers and Color of Night.
For anyone whose interest in non-evil undead has been piqued here, I would add to James's recommendations Fred Saberhagen's series of novels narrated by Count Dracula, especially The Dracula Tapes, in which the Count relates his side of the story told in Stoker's original novel.
When it comes to guilty pleasure movies, mine has gotta be Birdemic: Shock and Terror. It's somethin magical.
Super Troopers is indeed a guilty please of mine as well, but shenanigans!
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Honestly, this issue with non-evil undead makes me wish that the game system did a lot more to differentiate between 'unholy undead' and 'spirits'. Maghara seems to be more of a spirit than an undead monster to me, and the fact that it would be harmed by positive energy doesn't seem right.
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The Doomkitten is 100% correct.
The act of intentionally creating undead is evil, and as a result most undead are evil, because they're filled with a burning desire and need to bring harm to life and to consume living energy and spread pain and sickness and so on.
But ghosts aren't usually intentionally created. They arise when a spirit is unwilling to move on, when a soul is not allowed to rest due to a great injustice. As detailed in the bestiary...
"Although ghosts can be any alignment, the majority cling to the living world out of a powerful sense of rage and hatred, and as a result are chaotic evil—even the ghost of a good or lawful creature can become hateful and cruel in its afterlife."
The primary reason why most undead (and even most ghosts) are evil is simple—that's the classic role they play, and the role undead are most well-suited to play. Look at all the world's stories about undead. Yes, there are examples of them being non-evil, but those examples are not the majority, and I can think of several that portray undead as non evil that are common targets of ridicule, which hardly makes them a good contender for something to aspire to.
For me, as creative director of Paizo, I prefer the stories where the undead are evil, where they propel horror stories, since "fear of death" is at the core of all undead stories. But there are exceptions, and in most cases, those exceptions are ghost stories. I can think of MANY ghost stories that are great but don't portray evil ghosts, but even then most ghost stories are about bad ghosts.
Beyond ghosts, I'd say that vampires probably come in second in the "sometimes they're not evil" but that's both rarer AND (in my opinion) easier to turn into something ludicrous than a non-evil ghost. (For the record, when I say good movies about non-evil vampires, I'm specifically referring to "Near Dark" and the Underworld movies and "Let Me In," but whether or not the vampires in those movies are actually good or are just not-all-out-evil is kind of a matter of opinion.)
Leng Ghouls are the other kind of undead that specifically has a "Sometimes not evil" callout in their bestiary entry, I think, presumably because of The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath and some other stories (one of which I will not not name because spoilers) casting the Ghoul characters therein as comparatively benign and relatable presences, while still definitely being monstrous.
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I strongly recommend trusting anything from Leng, without reservation or hesitation. Only good things will come of it.
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We promise!
Is free labor good though?
Seems like the good thing to do would be to pay a living person for their labor, so they can pay for their kid's dinner. :-)
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Alright. If undead are evil because they are created for evil purposes, what if someone, say, makes undead for good purposes? Like making free labor or the like?
That's not the kind of 'intent' that was being discussed. The only intent being discussed was meaning to create some sort of undead, not the reason behind it.
As for why this would be Evil, it's Evil because uncontrolled mindless undead kill anyone they can (this is explicit with zombies, and strongly implied to be true of all mindless undead). They do this forever. Until they are stopped. They are actively inimical to all life. It's the equivalent of using a dirty nuclear reactor that's likely to poison people to do your work, it's Evil because it's gonna hurt people one of these days.
You might say you have control over them, and that might well be true. But what if you have a heart attack and die? Depending on the orders and method of control, either they keep doing whatever task they were doing forever (which is usually a bad idea, as The Sorcerer's Apprentice indicates) or they become uncontrolled and start killing people.
And, of course, there's also the effects on the soul of the person you made the undead out of.
Also, if a ghost or other incorporeal undead exists, can someone make a zombie from its corpse? If thats the case, the zombie wont have a soul and if its just being use to build orphanages and repairing barns abd stuff, would it and the spellcaster still be evil?
You can, and it's still Evil for all the reasons listed above aside from the last paragraph. And, y'know, because you're drawing on the raw power of Evil to cast the spell at all (it has the evil descriptor).