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I've been avoiding scroll based characters for this very question. Seems like a big headache with no clear answers. As I read it, PFS doesn't really want us using scrolls, so the rule is there to give an option for those that insist (like the poison use ability in PFS). I don't know if this is the intention, or not, but it seems this way when I read it.
Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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@Murdock
You read it the opposite of how I do.
They don't want to have to track which class wrote a particular scroll and they don't want to suddenly change scroll prices because a new class came out that might get a spell earlier than one of the main classes.
You can have a Cleric hand off their scroll of Summon Monster III to a wizard, who can then use it. The same Cleric could hand off their scroll of Cure Critical Wounds to a witch or bard and have them use it. If the spell is on your spell list, it actually makes it easier to use scrolls.
Sure there are corner cases (such as the Magus one I mentioned), but overall it make it easier to use scrolls.
As for using UMD with a scroll, just politely ask the GM before rolling how they do it and what your preferred answer is. Something like "I've this scroll of Remove Curse. My Charisma would be good enough to cast it as a bard or oracle, so it that what I do?"
Really, most GMs just want to run the session and have no interest in screwing over characters.
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Really, most GMs just want to run the session and have no interest in screwing over characters.
This is very true.
Though for my character I was tinkering with the idea would be to sport overleveled scrolls. You can get a 4th level scroll on your 1st level character with 2PP, after all. I get the feeling that many GMs would seriously consider screwing over your character when they tried to cast a 4th level spell in a 1st tier game...And I wouldn't blame them.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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A 4th level scroll would require at least a 7th level caster.
Deciphering the scroll would be a DC 29 check. Tough for a first level character, but you could probably take 20 on that.
Using the scroll would be a DC 27 check. Still very tough for a first level character. If you fail, you need to make a Wisdom check to not wreck the scroll.
I expect that you would have a much higher chance of wasting your 2 PP than you do of getting the scroll to work. Especially since you could still be forced to do a concentration check.
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Really, most GMs just want to run the session and have no interest in screwing over characters.This is very true.
Though for my character I was tinkering with the idea would be to sport overleveled scrolls. You can get a 4th level scroll on your 1st level character with 2PP, after all. I get the feeling that many GMs would seriously consider screwing over your character when they tried to cast a 4th level spell in a 1st tier game...And I wouldn't blame them.
a color spray with a dc 18 save is way worse than a 4th level spell with a dc 16 save.
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Per the PRD, someone activating a scroll must meet three requirements:
1. The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
2. The user must have the spell on her class list.
3. The user must have the requisite ability score.
Consider a scroll of barkskin - it normally would be a divine scroll with caster level 3 (or higher) and it is on the druid and ranger spell lists. Someone who is not a divine caster would need to use UMD to emulate a divine casting class in order to meet the first requirement. If they successfully emulate a druid or ranger, they meet the second requirement. A divine caster who does not have the spell on his list (e.g. cleric or oracle) meets the first requirement and thus would not need to use UMD to emulate a divine caster, but would need to use UMD to add the spell to their list. The third requirement would be determined by their casting class (e.g., a non-caster emulating a druid or ranger would need to have Wis 12, but an oracle adding the spell to their class list would need Cha 12).
For the purposes of PFS, the scroll no longer has an arcane or divine type, so anyone that is either an arcane or a divine caster meets the first requirement. If the character is neither, then they would need to use UMD to emulate a divine or arcane caster. Their choice would determine whether the spell is on their class list, which casting stat is required, and whether there is a chance of arcane spell failure.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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A 4th level scroll would require at least a 7th level caster.
Deciphering the scroll would be a DC 29 check. Tough for a first level character, but you could probably take 20 on that.
Using the scroll would be a DC 27 check. Still very tough for a first level character. If you fail, you need to make a Wisdom check to not wreck the scroll.
I expect that you would have a much higher chance of wasting your 2 PP than you do of getting the scroll to work. Especially since you could still be forced to do a concentration check.
If built in a certain way it's slightly less than a fifty fifty shot of pulling it off.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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If you don't already have a class list, you need to emulate a class feature that gives you one. The complication here arises because PFS has eliminated the arcane/divine divide, but that doesn't negate the need to be a caster all together.
I'd have to check this when I get home but I'm pretty sure the assumption is you default to a spellcaster with no spells.
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If you don't already have a class list, you need to emulate a class feature that gives you one. The complication here arises because PFS has eliminated the arcane/divine divide, but that doesn't negate the need to be a caster all together.
would the same not be true for using a wand then? "This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge." if you do not have a spell list then you also have to emulate a class feature? I think we are going well outside RAI and I don't think its even RAW to require more checks than these three.
1)Decipher a written spell (if it is unknown)2) UMD a scroll or wand
3) for a scroll if you don't meet the ability score requirement make a check (actually don't know what the dc is)
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The primary difference between scrolls and wands is that scrolls are spell completion items and wands are spell trigger items.
Why does this matter?
Using a wand only requires that you be of a class that has the spell on its class list, but scrolls have three requirements for activation, as I cited in my previous post.
The rules do not say what you think they're saying.
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Per the PRD for spell completion items: "To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already." Per the PRD for spell trigger items, "Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell." The specific rules I cited for activating a scroll earlier tell us that it requires that you have an arcane or divine class matching the arcane/divine nature of the scroll, that the spell be on your class list, and that you have a casting stat sufficient to cast the spell. You have been suggesting that the first requirement can be ignored. I don't agree. The PFS-specific rule means that any spellcasting class matches the arcane/divine nature of the scroll, not that you no longer need to have the ability to cast arcane or divine spells.
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Activating a scroll has three requirements. The description of UMD for "use a scroll" says that it bypasses one of them, specifically calls out that another must be met (with the possibility of making a second check to bypass it as well), but makes no mention of the third requirement - are you suggesting that the third requirement no longer needs to be met?
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Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
there was never a third requirement to be met when using UMD. it does not say that it bypasses only one it says you make the following check(s)
1) UMD to cast it as if you had it on your spell list,
2) UMD to emulate an ability score if you do not meet the requirements.
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Activating a scroll has three requirements. The description of UMD for "use a scroll" says that it bypasses one of them, specifically calls out that another must be met (with the possibility of making a second check to bypass it as well), but makes no mention of the third requirement - are you suggesting that the third requirement no longer needs to be met?
I'm saying you read it wrong
There is no third requirementThere never was a third requirement.
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Per the PRD for spell completion items: "To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already." Per the PRD for spell trigger items, "Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell." The specific rules I cited for activating a scroll earlier tell us that it requires that you have an arcane or divine class matching the arcane/divine nature of the scroll, that the spell be on your class list, and that you have a casting stat sufficient to cast the spell. You have been suggesting that the first requirement can be ignored. I don't agree. The PFS-specific rule means that any spellcasting class matches the arcane/divine nature of the scroll, not that you no longer need to have the ability to cast arcane or divine spells.
You are missing a very key part of the scroll rules.
Basically, the requirements to cast a scroll are:
-divine scrolls for divine casters, arcane for arcane.
-user must have the spell on their class list.
-user must have the required ability score.
The minimal caster level isn't required, but attempting to cast one which you do not meet the minimal caster level can result in a bad situation totally up the GM. This is not a UMD check if you meet the above, it's caster level check, making it much harder, since there are so few ways to boost this roll.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
this is a quote from the PRD, found here.
It goes on to list the effects of a scroll "mishap." This would be the part where a GM that is normally nice, would consider screwing my character:
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll as the spell is cast.
Scroll Mishaps: When a mishap occurs, the spell on the scroll has a reversed or harmful effect. Possible mishaps are given below.
A surge of uncontrolled magical energy deals 1d6 points of damage per spell level to the scroll user.
Spell strikes the scroll user or an ally instead of the intended target, or a random target nearby if the scroll user was the intended recipient.
Spell takes effect at some random location within spell range.
Spell's effect on the target is contrary to the spell's normal effect.
The scroll user suffers some minor but bizarre effect related to the spell in some way. Most such effects should last only as long as the original spell's duration, or 2d10 minutes for instantaneous spells.
Some innocuous item or items appear in the spell's area.
Spell has delayed effect. Sometime within the next 1d12 hours, the spell activates. If the scroll user was the intended recipient, the spell takes effect normally. If the user was not the intended recipient, the spell goes off in the general direction of the original recipient or target, up to the spell's maximum range, if the target has moved away.
GM has quite a bit of freedom here. Even a really nice GM is probably going to make the character regret failing this check.
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So by your logic Pete, the UMD check initially gives you a spell list with the spell you want to cast on that spell list but not the caster level to cast it. so you are saying that you also need to make another umd check dc 20 + caster level. by this logic to cast a single first level spell from a scroll as a rogue who doesn't meet the lets say wisdom requirement I would have to possibly do the following -
1) UMD dc 26 decipher scroll
2) UMD dc 21 use scroll
3) UMD dc 21 emulate class feature caster level 1
4) UMD dc 16 Emulate ability score
I really do not feel like your interpretation is not only wrong but even in game I would just never attempt it, not worth it to ever use a scroll without crazy investment specifically because you cannot take 10.
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And for the record, I've only found two ways to boost this roll in all of Pathfinder.
Half-elves have this racial trait option (ARG):
Arcane Training: Half-elves occasionally seek tutoring to help them master the magic in their blood. Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class, and it must be an arcane spellcasting class. They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented racial trait.
And Cyper Magic (ISG, in PFS the scribe scroll requirement is replaced by spell focus):
Prerequisites: Int 15, Scribe Scroll.Benefit: You cast spells from scrolls at +1 caster level higher than the scroll’s caster level. This benefit extends to scrolls that you have created. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to activate a scroll with a higher caster level than your own.
Beyond that, the only other way to boost it is general things that boost D20 rolls. I'd be wearing a PFS T-shirt if I ever tried this in play...
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I'm saying you read it wrong
There is no third requirement
There never was a third requirement.
In the Magic Items section on scrolls, the PRD says:
"To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score."
If a character does not meet the second or third requirements, they can be met using a "Use a Scroll" and "Emulate an Ability Score" UMD skill check. I think the first requirement can be met by using the "Emulate a Class Feature" UMD skill check. I don't see it covered in the rule on "Use a Scroll" (which mentions only meeting the second requirement). If you disagree, please provide a citation to support your interpretation. Thank you.
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I'm saying you read it wrong
There is no third requirement
There never was a third requirement.In the Magic Items section on scrolls, the PRD says:
"To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score."
If a character does not meet the second or third requirements, they can be met using a "Use a Scroll" and "Emulate an Ability Score" UMD skill check. I think the first requirement can be met by using the "Emulate a Class Feature" UMD skill check. I don't see it covered in the rule on "Use a Scroll" (which mentions only meeting the second requirement). If you disagree, please provide a citation to support your interpretation. Thank you.
I really feel like the "use a scroll" part of use a scroll covers it nicely.
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I'm saying you read it wrong
There is no third requirement
There never was a third requirement."To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
This obviously does not apply when you are making a UMD check: this is what the UMD check is FOR.
The user must have the spell on her class list.
This is met by umd.
The user must have the requisite ability score."
This can be met by UMD, but really shouldn't HAVE to unless you're a lucky 7s barbarian.
And you're out of what the rules say and onto what you think they mean.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I'm saying you read it wrong
There is no third requirement
There never was a third requirement.In the Magic Items section on scrolls, the PRD says:
Which by Paizo's own admission is completely out of date and has some ridiculously wonky rules interactions that makes it really hard to use as written....
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So by your logic Pete, the UMD check initially gives you a spell list with the spell you want to cast on that spell list but not the caster level to cast it. so you are saying that you also need to make another umd check dc 20 + caster level. by this logic to cast a single first level spell from a scroll as a rogue who doesn't meet the lets say wisdom requirement I would have to possibly do the following -
1) UMD dc 26 decipher scroll
2) UMD dc 21 use scroll
3) UMD dc 21 emulate class feature caster level 1
4) UMD dc 16 Emulate ability scoreI really do not feel like your interpretation is not only wrong but even in game I would just never attempt it, not worth it to ever use a scroll without crazy investment specifically because you cannot take 10.
In all of my discussions, I was assuming the step to decipher the scroll was given. I had also been ignoring the final step of the caster level check, as pointed out by Murdock Mudeater.
To activate a scroll, the user must have an arcane or divine casting class. If they do not, they emulate a class using "Emulate a Class Feature." Their effective casting level becomes their skill check result - 20 (which comes into play when applying the rules regarding caster level checks). If they choose to emulate a class that has the desired spell on its spell list, they meet the second requirement without an additional check. They may or may not need to make a check to emulate the ability score, depending on the spell level and the key stat for the class they chose to emulate.
For someone who is an arcane or divine caster, we would normally need to see if their caster type matches the scroll type. If not, they would need also to make an "Emulate a Class Feature" check to emulate a class with the appropriate caster type. However, since PFS has done away with the arcane/divine nature of scrolls for the purposes of this campaign, that point is moot. If the scroll spell is not on their class spell list, they must make a "Use a Scroll" check. Again, they may or may not need to make a check to emulate the required ability score.
The only time that I would see that multiple checks would be required is where the user is a non-caster and wants to emulate a class that does not have the scroll spell on their class list. The only reason I would see for this would be to use the corner case where they want to take advantage of the PFS rule ignoring the arcane/divine matching requirement to cast an arcane spell using a non-arcane class in order to avoid a chance of arcane spell failure due to armor (which ties back into the original thread topic).
I hope this clarifies my position.
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the caster level check is generally very easy, since you add your level and only need to get to their level. A first level caster has a better than fifty fifty shot at cranking out a cl 10 scroll
Yeah, easy enough, but you waste a standard action in the attempt, and further risk that scroll mishap, which is not kind in any respect.
So out of combat, sure, it could be done. In combat, fifty fifty odds suck.
A 4th level wizard scroll would be a DC 8 caster level check, which is actually easier than fifty fifty. And if that fails, only a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid the mishap.
Wizards tend to be light on wisdom and that scroll mishap is daunting. Not something to risk on just any opponent. Not to mention that even with success, it's still 700gp or 2pp wasted in a single standard action.
Still, it would be really fun to resolve some of those 1st level scenarios with 4th level spells. Confirmation, for example, I can totally picture Wall of Ice or Charm Monster being amazing and creating a very unexpected adventure.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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No. They don't. This is already covered by putting it on your class list.Once again, I ask you to cite the rules text that supports your position. I have already cited the text that contradicts it.
As I said earlier in the thread you just cited incomplete rules that are in need of rewriting by Paizo's own admission.
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No. They don't. This is already covered by putting it on your class list.Once again, I ask you to cite the rules text that supports your position. I have already cited the text that contradicts it.
You have not.
You have cited rules text that says something else completely. There is a vast difference.
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As I said earlier in the thread you just cited incomplete rules that are in need of rewriting by Paizo's own admission.
The rules text appears complete to me. There have been six printings of the Core Rulebook and the text I cited is current. Can you cite a post where someone in an official capacity says not to use them as currently written? Thank you.
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Please elaborate. How do the rules I cited say something other than what I indicated? What is the vast difference? Thank you.You have not.
You have cited rules text that says something else completely. There is a vast difference.
We have been. You're not listening.
Nothing there says, hints, or even implies that you need the spells class feature, or that a wizard using a scroll of CLW has fewer checks than a rogue.
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We have been. You're not listening.
Nothing there says, hints, or even implies that you need the spells class feature, or that a wizard using a scroll of CLW has fewer checks than a rogue.
I have read your posts, but I don't see any evidence to support your position and I disagree with your assumptions. There is rules text that states that you need to be an arcane or divine caster and I have cited it - in the Magic Items section, the first rule for activating a scroll says that you can only use scrolls that match your caster type. The "Emulate a Class Feature" check allows you to meet this requirement by emulating the Spells feature of a class that has the necessary caster type. The "Use a Scroll" check makes no mention of meeting this requirement.
Under the normal Pathfinder rules, a wizard trying to activate a scroll of cure light wounds written by a cleric, druid, or other divine caster would need to make an "Emulate a Class Feature" check meet the requirement that he be a divine caster. If the scroll was written by a bard and was therefore arcane, he would instead make a "Use a Scroll" check to add it to his class list. A cleric, druid, or other divine caster trying to activate a scroll of cure light wounds written by a bard would also need to make an "Emulate a Class Feature" check to activate an arcane scroll. A "Use a Scroll" check does nothing for them because the spell is already on their class list. In PFS, the scroll no longer has an arcane or divine type and so anyone capable of casting divine or arcane spells simply needs to add the spell to their class list with a "Use a Scroll" check.
In the past, I have seen GMs rule that a non-caster or a caster that was of a type different from the type who wrote the scroll needed to make two checks - one to emulate the divine or arcane caster type and then another to a "Use a Scroll." In reading the rules more carefully, I think that this was wrong. If the check to emulate a class feature was made for a class that already has the desired spell on their spell list, they should not have also needed to make the "Use a Scroll" check.
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For Pete's sake (pun intended), I cannot believe this argument continues.
Pete, under Use Magic Device it says:
"Use a scroll" then gives the DC as 20+caster level.
Adding extra steps is completely outside the bounds of the rules. Sure, you can go to the magic items section, but why!?
UMD (the specific) overrides anything in the magic items section (the general) regarding UMD itself. You want to UMD a scroll, the UMD section tells you exactly the DC to use a scroll. That's it.
It's just ridiculous to think there's more to it than that.
Just stop.
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The title of the skill check does not determine its effect - a successful "Use a Scroll" check adds a spell to your class list, and per the rules for that check, that is all that it does. That is not the only requirement that the rules do list for someone to be able to activate a scroll. I am not advocating adding extra steps, I am advocating following the rules that are in the Core Rulebook. Those rules require that you answer the following questions:
1. Are you able to match the arcane/divine caster type requirement? (which is modified in PFS, as previously discussed)
2. Is the spell on your spell list?
3. Do you have the required caster stat?
If the answer is no, you must use the UMD skill to meet the requirement. The UMD skill description makes it clear that multiple checks are needed when multiple criteria are required to activate a particular magic item.
Given that this discussion has more or less devolved into "No, it isn't." "Yes, it is." territory, I will leave off further comments unless new information is presented. Thank you.
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For Pete's sake (pun intended), I cannot believe this argument continues.
Pete, under Use Magic Device it says:
"Use a scroll" then gives the DC as 20+caster level.
Adding extra steps is completely outside the bounds of the rules. Sure, you can go to the magic items section, but why!?
UMD (the specific) overrides anything in the magic items section (the general) regarding UMD itself. You want to UMD a scroll, the UMD section tells you exactly the DC to use a scroll. That's it.
It's just ridiculous to think there's more to it than that.
Just stop.
Actually, If you read the entry in the CRB for "use scroll," it can require more than 1 check:
First, to cast any scroll, a character must first Descipher it. This is not an in-combat thing, as it takes 1 minute .For Use Magic Device, it has DC 25+spell level. You can also use spellcraft do this same thing, but the DC is 20+spell level. The spell "Read Magic" will also do this, though it doesn't work any faster. As I read it, you should be able to take 20 on this check, provided it isn't a cursed scroll.
Second, to cast a scroll, the ability score emulation is required if you lack the required ability score. This check is specifically required in addition to the "use scroll" if your score isn't high enough to cast the spell. The Emulated ability score is your UMD check result-15, so DC 16 is required to cast a 1st level spell without having the ability score needed for the scroll (10+spell level).
Third, the "Use Scroll" UMD check is DC 20+caster level. This is a standard action, or the full casting time if longer normally. this check emulates having the spell on your class list, which I think would also cover being a divine/arcane casting class.
Forth, as far as I can tell, Caster Levels cannot be Emulated by UMD. So when the caster level check comes up for not being high enough level to cast the spell, a straight d20 caster level check will be required (DC required caster level+1). 1s always fail. A failure will require a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid mishaps. I'm not certain, but I think you CL from any class could be applied here.
That's how I read it anyway. So a rogue with UMD should be able to cast from scrolls, but the caster level check could be a bit risky, especially with a low wisdom rogue.
Mind you, there is no UMD check required to use the scroll if you meet the three requirements of scrolls (class list of spells, approitate spellcasting class, and ability score). You'd still have to descipher the scroll, but a caster can use that 0-level Read Magic to avoid that check entirely (though it doesn't decrease the time required to read it). And if your caster level isn't high enough, the caster level check is also required.
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Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list...
The requirements to cast a deciphered scroll are: correct type (but not for PFS), ability score (based on caster class), spell on class list, caster level.
Since the UMD check for scrolls includes caster level, we can presume that that requirement is catered for. Ability score is catered for by another check.
So, should the wording be:
Use a Scroll: If you wish to use a scroll containing a spell not on your class spell list, make a Use Magic Device check with a DC equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast. If you do not have a spell list, also choose a spell casting class to emulate for the purpose of having the appropriate minimum ability score.
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So, should the wording be:Use a Scroll: If you wish to use a scroll containing a spell not on your class spell list, make a Use Magic Device check with a DC equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast. If you do not have a spell list, also choose a spell casting class to emulate for the purpose of having the appropriate minimum ability score.
HOWEVER, that is NOT the wording, so therefore 'expect table variation'?
Sounds legit to me.
What else can we discuss now?
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Forth, as far as I can tell, Caster Levels cannot be Emulated by UMD.
Per the PRD: "Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20." That's one of the reasons I feel that for a non-caster, you need to make this check rather than the "Use a Scroll" check (and if the emulated class has the spell on its list, you don't need to make that check at all).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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As I said earlier in the thread you just cited incomplete rules that are in need of rewriting by Paizo's own admission.The rules text appears complete to me. There have been six printings of the Core Rulebook and the text I cited is current. Can you cite a post where someone in an official capacity says not to use them as currently written? Thank you.
Part of what you are getting so horribly wrong is actually mentioned in the field guide, page 1 of this thread, and a completely different book from Core. I don't think there was any single post that you made where the rules were complete. I wouldn't even be pointing this out if you were so adamant that you knew what you were talking about in regards to the rest of the UMD rules.
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Please elaborate. How do the rules I cited say something other than what I indicated? What is the vast difference? Thank you.You have not.
You have cited rules text that says something else completely. There is a vast difference.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells.
There is no way to go from that to requiring the spell class feature. That is not there, that is something you, not the rules, are doing. In non PFS, a druid (a divine caster) cannot use an arcane scroll of spider climb even though he has the spells class feature, and a wizard cannot use a divine scroll of spider climb (probably written on bark) even though he also has the spells class feature.
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Part of what you are getting so horribly wrong is actually mentioned in the field guide, page 1 of this thread, and a completely different book from Core. I don't think there was any single post that you made where the rules were complete. I wouldn't even be pointing this out if you were so adamant that you knew what you were talking about in regards to the rest of the UMD rules.
I didn't find any reference to the Field Guide on the first page of this thread. Could you please point me to the correct post? I'm sorry that you feel I didn't quote all the relevant rules - I quoted all of the ones that I thought were pertinent. Please post any of the applicable rules you thought I missed. Thanks.
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Forth, as far as I can tell, Caster Levels cannot be Emulated by UMD.Per the PRD: "Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20." That's one of the reasons I feel that for a non-caster, you need to make this check rather than the "Use a Scroll" check (and if the emulated class has the spell on its list, you don't need to make that check at all).
But is that a caster level, or an effective wizard level? Yes, a wizard is a caster, but if I'm just emulating the level of wizard, I don't think it automatically means I have a caster level too. That would be like saying having an effective fighter level of 10 should give me +10 BAB.