Converting Ultimate Campaign to D&D5

[Elodie Hiras]

Hello all!

So I kinda like Ultimate Campaign and the relationship system (even though it was underwhelming. I've always been a sucker for the SOCIAL LINK GO!! aspect of Persona where you could get extra goodies on the combat parts and the goodies I've found from Ultimate Campaign didn't seem all that much of an influence), the Downtime System to handle business, and the Kingdom Building Rules. But one thing that irked me about D&D 3.5/Pathfinder and to a lesser extent D&D 5 was skill inflation.

Say, when you are level 1 to 4, you have a shot at rolling untrained skills and getting somewhere. After that, either you have the maximum number of allowed ranks in your skill, or you shouldn't bother using them as the DCs will shoot sky high. Try Bluffing the local militia member at lvl 2 untrained and bluffing the elite guard of a comparable level to you untrained at level 10 if you don't get what I mean.

D&D 4 had different problem, IMHO at least in that skills didn't matter that much, since all your skills increased when you leveled, there wasn't a single thing that stayed untouched and as such while you could succeed in bluffing a lvl 1 guard or a lvl 10 guard untrained at comparable levels, bluffing a lvl 1 untrained while you were level 10 was virtually guaranteed.

With the proficiency bonus, D&D 5 solved the skill inflation. Being trained in a skill gave you a bonus of between 2 and 6 to it, which means that it was still worth doing skill checks untrained in D&D 5, even though you would be noticeably worse than if you were trained in the skill.

So most of Ultimate Campaign has been written with that skill inflation, but I kinda like the ideas in that book. How should one rewrite it to remove skill inflation?

Also, as a separate issue, I've been thinking about making relationships for PCs kinda like the Advanced Warfare Center from XCOM 2, granting minor class abilities from other classes if pursued, say pursuing a relationship with some holy figure give something equivalent to the lvl 1 paladin Lay On Hands to a non-paladin, or a rogue talent to a non rogue, something that wouldn't completely change how the character would be played, but would give a small bonus (speaking as someone playing XCOM 2, seeing "Blast Padding" being awarded to a sharpshooter who is always too far away from the fight to get shot back still brings a smile to my face since in the event I mess up and this guy/gal is exposed to enemy fire this 1 armor point may save his/her life), maybe instead of vanilla relationship bonus I could get Fellowship/Rivalry: training in one skill of the NPC (chosen randomly), as if one skill rank per level has been invested in it, and Devotion/Enmity a class ability from another class (level 1-3 probably) or feat that is usually never taken, chosen randomly from a list of classes that thematically make sense for the NPC. Hell, I'm sure even "Endurance" or "Run", or any number of feats that no player ever takes, would make a player happy if offered as a freebie, no strings attached.

[shadowkras]

Actually most of the skill check DC's are static, or a number closer to 20. I can't remember any DC that was higher than 20 to be honest.

The only DC's that increase are the kingdom checks, and those are not tied to your skills or your character stats in any way other than the bonus you contribute from your ability scores for being a kingdom leader, which is a small bonus.

So the system should be fine for 5e on that regard.

If you really think that the bonuses are too high for 5ed, you can cut them in half easily. If a blacksmith grants +2 to crafting skills, reduce that to +1. If a room grants +4 to a certain check, reduce to +2.

If the DC to attempt something are too high, you reduce it by 5 points and they should be much easier.

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Try Bluffing the local militia member at lvl 2 untrained and bluffing the elite guard of a comparable level to you untrained at level 10 if you don't get what I mean.

Actually, if we are really talking about guards, sense motive shouldn't be a class skill, nor he should invest much on it, regardless of his level. Fighters (and warriors) in general get only 2 skill points per rank, and for a guard, both Perception and Profession(Guard) should be a higher priority on skills, with Intimidate on a second spot, and Ride, Handle Animal, Survive and Sense Motive on a third position based on your specialization as a guard.

So, even at level 10 we are talking about a DC no higher than low 20s, or maybe lower.

[Elodie Hiras]

Let's talk about stealth instead. Stealth is almost all or nothing. Either you've got guards without any skill point in perception, at which point you can turn the infiltration into a farce (https://youtu.be/EP4xdHryM7U#t=3min23s represents it pretty well), assuming you have maxed stealth of course, or your stealth skill isn't maxed and the enemies have invested in perception at which point it turns into a farce (Think a heister with the minigun and rocket launcher dropping in Shadow Raid).

Seriously, unless GenSec has been involved into cross dimentional hijinks, guards shouldn't either be incapable of spotting a character who isn't explicitly invisible, or able to spot anything short of a ninja with quasi supernatural powers.

Let's think back about the lvl 1 guard, and take a lvl 10 PC. Give the level one guard his level one rank in perception, and make it a class skill, against a level 10 rogue. The guard has +4. The rogue has +13. If the rogue rolls a 1... The guard still needs to roll a 10+ to see him. Now, an untrained mage will sneak past that guy approximately 30% of the time.

Level 10 guard, level 10 rogue, level 10 wizard (invisibility compplicate things, so let's just ignore it.) The rogue and the guard are on even footing, the wizard should not even bother showing up since if he rolls a 20, the guard just needs a 10 to spot him. It just gets so silly.

If the full party runs stealth, it's either a farce straight from Payday 2 or somewhat of a challenge.

In Payday 2 a skilled player with some less than ideal loadout but still not ridiculous (let's say 40 detection rating) for stealth can rely on scouts, camera and so on too avoid the guards.

Now you may say "level ones should not be a threat to lvl 10s". To witch I'll reply: I want a game where the lowly lvl 1 Generic Security guard can spot the rogue, sound the alarm, and bring in some heavy duty reinforcement, making stealth a high risk/high reward scenario where players can lessen the risk through preplanning such as bribes, acquiring plans, giving some mild food poisoning to the guards which takes them out of guard duty but doesn't leave lasting harm, and so on.

Any opposed test gets crazy in D&D 3.5 Pathfinder, while a high level D&D 5 character has a measurable edge, but can be beaten at a skill check even if they would win the fight hands down (besides, a dozen guards can give pause to a high level fighter in D&D 5, which is how I like it. I prefer the tactical approach, and skill inflation doesn't fit for me).

[shadowkras]

Stealth is not only about hiding, but knowing how to remain hidden, pass without being noticed, and move silently (remember they were two skills back in 3.x?).
A guard, at night, on a poorly lit castle, will have dozens of penalties to their Perception checks, and with enough concealment, a particularly dexterous, but without training in stealth, character with no heavy load or armor could easily pass through a lot of guards unnoticed.

Simply because you do not roll Perception vs Stealth unmodified.
Perception has a lot of circunstancial modifiers, more likely for worse than to help the observer.

As for moving stealthy as a group, you can always aid another and move slower. You will sacrifice your standard action each turn to help your allies with their stealth check. If we got a group of 4 pcs, at least two of them are particularly compenent on stealth and can aid the others, or the one with heavier armor with two uses of aid (for a +4 bonus aid).

Not only that, you can use distractions, we got rules for that. Spells can help all kind of bad stealthers to become good stealthers , invisibility on the paladin will still grant him +20 on his stealth checks (by lv10 you should have money to buy potions of invisibility).

"so let's just ignore it.". No, let's not ignore it, unless we are on a campaign setting where magic is unavailable somehow. Guards likely will not have magic, PC's most likely will. That's not something to be ignored. Guards are there as mundane countermeasures, not magical.
A character than can teleport, jump between shadows, become ethereal, become gaseous, become a small rat, dominate minds, become invisible, lower the light condition, create diversions, summon creatures as distractions on another place to attract guards, and so on, will have plenty of tools to help on their heist.

If you want your guards to be the top of their Perception, you can give them Skill Focus (Perception), raise their skill ranks, hire animals with high perception/darkvision (most animals got low light vision), have them take classes where Perception is a class-skill (ultimate campaign is really nice to help on this), and even apply magical alarms on important areas, or even alarm traps.
If the guards work for a particularly rich or powerful character, they could have aid from magical items or alchemical items. Clear Ear gives +2 perception for 6 hours, and a rogue that was sprayed with glowing ink will have trouble to remain hidden (+2 perception to locate him), or simply hire more guards.
Animals, again, animals. Animals have all kinds of good perception to spot invaders, even common dogs (i believe cost 1 gp?) can spot someone walking right behind him due to his scent, and if the invader is against the wind, they can be spotted from even farther.

Yeah, i might have played Shadowrun too much.

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Now you may say "level ones should not be a threat to lvl 10s". To witch I'll reply: I want a game where the lowly lvl 1 Generic Security guard can spot the rogue, sound the alarm, and bring in some heavy duty reinforcement, making stealth a high risk/high reward scenario where players can lessen the risk through preplanning such as bribes, acquiring plans, giving some mild food poisoning to the guards which takes them out of guard duty but doesn't leave lasting harm, and so on.

Then you should probably remove the skill system from the game.

Because the higher your skills, and the higher your level, less likely your PC's will attempt a heist without aid of magical sources.
Even with a +20 to stealth only from his skills and magical items, a rogue will probably still ask for an invisibily spell from his mage friend, specially if they are high level and those spell slots are rarely used in combat anymore.

Having played D&D 5ed for an year, on 3 different characters, i can tell you that the character bonuses are lower, but the problems you are so afraid of are still the same.
You can employ a lot of mechanics to help our rogue to get past guards on 5ed, specially using feats and spells.

You should talk to your players first if they are into this kind of thing, or they will take the easier route for them (which usually means more dice rolling and less roleplaying). Our rogue will simply kill all the guards, because he is lv10, while the guards are lv1.

If you want to make your players afraid of invading somewhere, the first thing you should do is not say "they are lv1 guards", and probably also not use lv1 guards if you want to challenge them. Or you simply want to say "i know you guys can take down demons and dragons, but these lv1 guards are better than you"?

Seriously, if we can do stealth runs in shadowrun with trolls wearing full battle suits and miniguns, i don't see why it can't be done in pathfinder or d&d 5ed.

[Saethori]

Who is it that's hiring level 1 people with neutral wisdom as security guards?

The Game Mastery Guide details quite a lot of NPCs, and even your average town guard is a level 3 warrior and has Alertness as a feat. (Though the class lacks Perception as a class skill, and the guards have negative INT, so they still amount to only +3 to perception.)

...why are the NPCs expressly designed to be guards so bad at spotting people sneaking around? I guess the problem comes from the fact that the party is using adventurer stats, and the NPCs are just average people.

[Jason Nelson]

The kingdom-building and mass combat rules from Ultimate Campaign have been revised for 5th Edition and compiled in Kingdoms (5E) from Legendary Games, with 5E versions of Ultimate Rulership coming next week, Ultimate Battle early October, and Ultimate War soon after that.