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RAW is pretty clear, I'm asking about intent. I had to tk blast a salamander (with a barrel of scrap metal it had behind it if you're curious) from a grapple last night and remembered kinetic blast is a SLA (I did succeed on my conc check, thanks to the wound system). This morning, it hit me that I don't remember text in kinetic blade specifically getting rid of concentration checks of melee casting and checked just to make sure. And lo and behold, no text exists.
So now I ask my thread title. Outta curiousity more than anything. Also might apply to K. Whip and K. Fist.
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Perhaps it's the precedent of Magus Spell Combat which is the thing closest to this ability (until the warlock vigilante archetype perhaps?) that I could think of but that's where my headspace currently is when it concerns this. Not to discount what you're saying because I do think you're right. Just explaining where my confusion stems from.
From Kinetic Blade's description:
Since it's part of another action (and isn't an action itself), using this wild talent doesn't provoke any additional attacks of opportunity.
Any reason why that isn't sufficient as written?
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Nope, no reason. Apparently I should read better.
EDIT: Actually, one last thing did occur to me. If you use kinetic blade while in a grapple (and any other situation besides preventing an attack of opportunity), do you still need to make a concentration check for kinetic blade. Not to prevent an AoO of course but on account of, you know, sla and grapple not mixing so well. I promise I'm not trying to be obstinate. Promise! (Since it's as part of an attack, should I just assume it suffers the normal penalties attack receive while a grapple).
No, that is a legit question- kineticists are tanks, but they also often have terrible CMD since they are 3/4 BAB and eliminate the need for strength stat. I imagine most kineticists are as good in a grapple as wizard.
While there is a way to substitute dex for this stuff, kineticists are kind of feat starved since they often aim for basic melee and ranged feats.
So if they can't reliably use the kinetic blade in grapple, that would be a weakness for the class.
No, that is a legit question- kineticists are tanks, but they also often have terrible CMD since they are 3/4 BAB and eliminate the need for strength stat. I imagine most kineticists are as good in a grapple as wizard.
While there is a way to substitute dex for this stuff, kineticists are kind of feat starved since they often aim for basic melee and ranged feats.
So if they can't reliably use the kinetic blade in grapple, that would be a weakness for the class.
Well, grappling isn't as much a problem for pyrokineticists, since they've got that whole "I've got literal fire for blood" thing going on.
Well, grappling isn't as much a problem for pyrokineticists, since they've got that whole "I've got literal fire for blood" thing going on.No, that is a legit question- kineticists are tanks, but they also often have terrible CMD since they are 3/4 BAB and eliminate the need for strength stat. I imagine most kineticists are as good in a grapple as wizard.
While there is a way to substitute dex for this stuff, kineticists are kind of feat starved since they often aim for basic melee and ranged feats.
So if they can't reliably use the kinetic blade in grapple, that would be a weakness for the class.
That's... not altogether true. I fashioned up a bugbear strangler and that was the single hardest thing for my PC (pyrokineticist) to take down.
Kinetic blade/whip are done as part of an attack action so follow the rules for attacking while grappled. Note: Kinetic blade/whip create a one handed light weapon (that can be finessed) for attacking.
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http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rnml?Kineticists-and-AoO#4
It depends on the shape. As per the FAQ on scorching ray, even defensive casting will provoke for shapes that make ranged attack rolls. However, other shapes like fan of flames do not provoke with defensive casting (and kinetic blade doesn't provoke at all).
Since Mark was the one who developed kineticist, and a developer to boot, its pretty much nailed down it does not provoke.
For the grappling, the "part of another action" never changed the fact that it's a spell-like ability, and the grappling rules specifically state "a grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell." I see that as meaning one still has to make the concentration check to use kinetic blade. For example, a swift/immediate action spell or SLA doesn't provoke an AOO normally and there might be abilities that allow one to not provoke with a spell/SLA, but would still have to make a concentration check to use it in a grapple (like with liberating command).
I usually never bothered trying to kinetic blade since the concentration check DC usually much higher than my bonus, til I reached up to 28-32 Constituon bonus but even then the things that bothered grappling me had such high strength and CMB and size that it usually wasn't worth the wasted round's effort and should have punched with cestus or down thing. My PFS pyro's searing flesh defensive talent made grappling him a big loss in HP for the grappler's turn that it balanced out and he never stayed grappled long, so I recommend any kineticist to have a melee weapon to pull out or a cestus in hand to use while grappled.
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Casting defensively will always be of concern for a Kineticist. Their Blast DC increases as they level. A 10th level Kineticist has +10 to Concentration, for example, but their DC for casting defensively is 15 plus 5×2=10 as well.
They need either a Con of 40 (for a +15 bonus), or reliance on outside sources to boost their Concentration checks. Taking a Trait for +2 to Concentration checks goes a long way for a Kineticist.
At least with casters, there's always the option to cast a lower level spell, which requires a lower DC check. But for a Kineticist in a grapple it's probably better to just carry a potion of gaseous form.
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Considering Infusions are Supernatural, and that form infusions make the blast "manifest in a different way", and that the action type becomes the various attack actions instead of the "use a spell-like ability" action...
I'd say you're no longer using a spell-like ability and you don't need to concentrate when grappling.
While there is a way to substitute dex for this stuff, kineticists are kind of feat starved since they often aim for basic melee and ranged feats.
Melee only needs two feats, weapon focus and weapon finesse(if going the Dex route) and ranged just needs three. This is not feat starved.
Melee only needs two feats, weapon focus and weapon finesse(if going the Dex route) and ranged just needs three. This is not feat starved.
While there is a way to substitute dex for this stuff, kineticists are kind of feat starved since they often aim for basic melee and ranged feats.
Plus toughness and iron will. Toughness to get more room for burn, and iron will because it is their bad save. The will save seems like a more dire problem than the CMD against grapples (getting grappled could incapacitate you and maybe kill you... a bad will save could cause you to kill you party).
That is still enough to keep you busy until mid levels. You might be able to use ride the blast before you have the stuff to deal with your CMD. A lot of games might not even get that far.
For the grappling, the "part of another action" never changed the fact that it's a spell-like ability, and the grappling rules specifically state "a grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell." I see that as meaning one still has to make the concentration check to use kinetic blade. For example, a swift/immediate action spell or SLA doesn't provoke an AOO normally and there might be abilities that allow one to not provoke with a spell/SLA, but would still have to make a concentration check to use it in a grapple (like with liberating command).
The part of another action is actually key to why you don't get hit with any AoO. An AoO is based entirely on what action you do. Kinetic blade is not a free action or swift action SLA into an attack action. It IS an attack action and attack actions do not provoke. The grapple rules don't look at the 'components' of your attack action to see if it is a spell or SLA. Mark is the class creator and a Paizo developer. He says the blade does not provoke. Outside of an FAQ ruling, that is going to be the most definitive answer you are going to be able to get.
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"a grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell."Mark is the class creator and a Paizo developer. He says the blade does not provoke.
"Provoking" and "Casting in a Grapple" are two different things.
He clarified the bit about the former, not the latter.
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For the grappling, the "part of another action" never changed the fact that it's a spell-like ability, and the grappling rules specifically state "a grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell." I see that as meaning one still has to make the concentration check to use kinetic blade. For example, a swift/immediate action spell or SLA doesn't provoke an AOO normally and there might be abilities that allow one to not provoke with a spell/SLA, but would still have to make a concentration check to use it in a grapple (like with liberating command).The part of another action is actually key to why you don't get hit with any AoO. An AoO is based entirely on what action you do. Kinetic blade is not a free action or swift action SLA into an attack action. It IS an attack action and attack actions do not provoke. The grapple rules don't look at the 'components' of your attack action to see if it is a spell or SLA. Mark is the class creator and a Paizo developer. He says the blade does not provoke. Outside of an FAQ ruling, that is going to be the most definitive answer you are going to be able to get.
I wasn't talking about provoking for casting a kinetic blade SLA in a grapple. Of course it won't provoke. I'm saying the concentration check is needed to even cast it at all.
Considering Infusions are Supernatural, and that form infusions make the blast "manifest in a different way", and that the action type becomes the various attack actions instead of the "use a spell-like ability" action...
I'd say you're no longer using a spell-like ability and you don't need to concentrate when grappling.
Infusions are a supernatural class feature allowing one to even modify kinetic blasts, a spell-like ability. In other words, infused kinetic blasts are spell-like abilities simply modified by a supernatural ability. The kinetic blast is still a spell-like ability, not a supernatural one. For example, if a monster had a supernatural ability to apply a metamagic feat to a spell-like ability, the SLA doesn't suddenly become a supernatural ability and gain all the benefits of being a supernatural ability such as avoiding AoOs or being used in a grapple automatically (unless that metamagic feat allowed such specific benefits, of course).
Kinetic blade had to specifically state that it's part of another action and doesn't provoke "any additional attacks of opportunities". It only refers to provoking AoOs, not no longer being an SLA and not needing to make concentration checks when other SLAs are required to.
Grappling rules also don't care what action is being used to perform/cast the spell/SLA. Swift, immediate, standard, full-round, 1 round, as its own action, as part of another action. They all require concentration checks. Nothing in kinetic blade/whip or even kinetic fist states they avoid that concentration check. This specific concentration check is still to even perform/cast the spell/SLA. If trying to simply avoid AoO, that's a separate casting defensively check (which kinetic blade doesn't need thanks to its rules text).
Would it be awesome if a kineticist can use the melee infusions in a grapple? Heck yea! But it's not written that way to support that so far in the grapple rules + kinetic blade text.
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Has Mark or any other developer spoken a Power Word on this? It would make a great difference to my current Kineticist character if she could Kinetic Blade while grappled (even with all the negatives). I agree that SLAs generally require concentration checks to even attempt under grappled conditions, but since Kinetic Blade subsumes the entire SLA into a melee attack action, I also find it credible that it should be treated like a melee attack action under a grapple.
It won't provoke in a grapple because of the wording of kinetic blade. However it'll still need a concentration check to simply activate it like any other SLA in a grapple because kinetic blade doesn't give any exceptions to that.