I find the concept of an intelligent fighter interesting sadly the learned duelist only gets one ability on lvl 9 that makes use of intelligence and it's not one of the best... that's where kirin strike comes into play and the fact that fighters get a lot of feats. It feels like you could make a fun, versatile build that has a lot of flavor for roleplay.
With weapon's master being pfs legal Ive been thinking there are some things that are unclear and depending on the interpretation (RAW or RAI) the learned duelist could be better than expected. not perfect of course, but better.
the thing that confuses me is the wording of duelist training.
Duelist Training (Ex): At 5th level, an Ustalavic duelist must select the light blades group for the weapon training class feature. The Ustalavic duelist’s weapon training bonus with light blades increases by 1 on attack and damage rolls for every 4 levels he possesses beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack and damage rolls at 17th level). If he is using his duelist stance, this damage bonus increases by 2. The Ustalavic duelist does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
the ability says it replaced weapon training, but it feels more like it changes it. if it only changes it the learned duelist gets to keep weapon training and all the advantages that come with it, especially the abilities that come with advanced weapon training, now I understand the duelist doesn't get advanced weapon training directly, however if we admit he has the weapon training class feature, he could get the advanced weapon training feat.
this would allow you to pick trained grace as a feat on level 5. you obviously have to pick weapon finesse somewhere earlier.
Trained Grace (Ex): When the fighter uses Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with a weapon, using his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls. The fighter must have Weapon Finesse in order to choose this option.
with this on level 9, you would have weapon training2 and its reasonable that you also have gloves of dueling(which would also count since by RAI you do have weapon training). And if you fulfill the duelist stance terms your damage gets doubled. with trained grace it gets doubled again. which would net you +4 to attack rolls and +12 to damage.
I know its a wall of text, but what do you say about my assumptions? or was this all for nothing and this has been clarified somewhere else already?
now for my build, its not finished but its a work in progress:
learned duelist human
str 14
dex 15
con 14
int 15 +2
wis 10
cha 7
traits: defender of society, student of philosophy
1: weapon finesse, Duelist Stance1
2: bravery1, weapon focus(rapier)
3: armor training1,imp unarmed fighting
4: +1 int, weapon specialization(rapier)
5: duelist training1, Duelist Stance2, Trained Grace
6: bravery2, kirin style
7: armor training2, vital strike
8: +1 dex
9: duelist training2, Precise Thrust, kirin strike
10: bravery3, Duelist Stance3, Weapon Specialist -> greater weapon focus, improved critical
11: armor training3, critical focus
there are a few minor questions about this build. does kirin strikes damage get multiplied on crit?
weapon specialist states that you get to pick as many feats as your weapon training bonus is, with gloves of dueling it is +2, does that mean I get to pick 4 feats or only 2?
what else can I do with such an unusual high int value on a fighter? student of philosophy already seems like a good start, with additional traits I could pick up some more nifty traits any ideas? pragmatic activator comes to mind.
with a buckler(counts as free hand?), duelist stance, defender of society, armor training. the learned duelist should have a fair amount of AC. any way to capitalize some more on this?
multiclassing seems like a bad idea since the figher loses a lot of progress in bravery, armor training, weapon training. or did I miss something?
thanks for reading! regards Nef
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Except it explicitly says "replaces". If they meant "alters" they would have said "alters".
Further it lacks the language a lot of other axhetype features have "this counts as _____ for purposes of prereqs and items that mention _____"
Holy wall of Text, Batman!
0. This is a mixture of advice and rules, probably belongs in the advice section of the boards.
1. I'm assuming "Learned Duelist" is the d20pfsrd way of saying "Ustalavic Duelist." Don't forget that in PFS you actually have to own a copy of Inner Sea Combat to use that archetype. (And Weapon Master's Handbook to use anything from there.)
For your questions about Duelist Training:
Yes, I think you are correct. It says you select light blades for the weapon training class feature. Really strict parsing would say that the ability is called something else, but the text clearly indicates you have the weapon training class feature. So yes you could use Gloves of Dueling and take the Advanced Weapon Training feat.
Quote: And if you fulfill the duelist stance terms your damage gets doubled. with trained grace it gets doubled again. which would net you +4 to attack rolls and +12 to damage. Not following this. Duelist Stance grants you a dodge bonus, nothing to damage. At 9th level with Gloves of Dueling and Trained Grace your bonus would be +4 to hit, +8 to damage.
Ah, you mean using Duelist Training while in duelist stance. That appears to be a secondary bonus, separate from Weapon Training. So you would have +4 to attack rolls and (+8 (weapon training) + 2 (Duelist Training)) = +10 damage.
Nope, read it again. Looks like you were right the first time. It specifically says "this bonus damage." That's a lot of bonus damage.
Quote: does kirin strikes damage get multiplied on crit? Probably. Even though it's a swift action it is "added" to the damage, not a separate damage source. And it's untyped (not precision) damage so that should multiply on a crit. It's not 100% clear, so some GMs may rule otherwise.
Quote: weapon specialist states that you get to pick as many feats as your weapon training bonus is, with gloves of dueling it is +2, does that mean I get to pick 4 feats or only 2? Four. Like headbands and belts, you don't have to take off your gloves.
Quote: with a buckler(counts as free hand?), duelist stance, defender of society, armor training. the learned duelist should have a fair amount of AC. any way to capitalize some more on this? Bucklers do not occupy the hand. Defender of the Society required Medium or Heavy armor while Duelist Stance requires Light or no armor. Can't use both.
Quote: multiclassing seems like a bad idea since the figher loses a lot of progress in bravery, armor training, weapon training. or did I miss something? Your opinion is correct unless you have a role-playing reason to multiclass. In general you may have missed the fact that you are going to be very MAD (multiple attribute dependent). You want a high Int. You're using Dex for attack rolls. You're using Strength for damage rolls. You need a decent Con. Overall I think this could be a very interesting build rather than the super-specialized ones we see so often. Good luck!
Kevin.
Re: +8 vs +12
I think he is parsing: Damage bonus increases by 1, if X damage bonus increases by 2 as stacking. I.e, the +2 gets added to +1, rather than replacing it.
I admit, it is not entirely clear to me.
Kevin Willis wrote: Defender of the Society required Medium or Heavy armor while Duelist Stance requires Light or no armor. Can't use both. Funny thing about that. A Mithral Breastplate would actually work. It's a medium armor (fulfilling Defender of the Society's requirement) that's treated as light for purposes of movement and other limitations (fulfilling the archetype's requirement).
I may have had a hand in that FAQ.
Jared Thaler wrote: Except it explicitly says "replaces". If they meant "alters" they would have said "alters".
Further it lacks the language a lot of other axhetype features have "this counts as _____ for purposes of prereqs and items that mention _____"
Here's the problem I have with that:
Quote: Duelist Training (Ex): At 5th level, an Ustalavic duelist must select the light blades group for the weapon training class feature. The Ustalavic duelist’s weapon training bonus with light blades increases by 1 on attack and damage rolls for every 4 levels he possesses beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack and damage rolls at 17th level). If he is using his duelist stance, this damage bonus increases by 2. The Ustalavic duelist does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level. This ability replaces weapon training 1. If we go by explicit RAW here we do the following:
1. I have to select light blades for Weapon Training.
2. Uh-oh, I don't have a class feature called Weapon Training.
3. Duelist Training does nothing.
That clearly isn't the intention. The text twice makes reference to the Duelist having Weapon Training with light blades. Yes, it probably should have said "alters weapon training 1."
Or if the intention was indeed to not have the weapon training ability, just change the text of the base fighter ability to something like:
Alternative Duelist Training Text wrote: At 5th level, an Ustalavic Duelist becomes an expert in the use of light weapons. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from the light blades fighter weapon group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. The Ustalavic Duelist’s bonus with light blades increases by 1 on attack and damage rolls for every 4 levels he possesses beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack and damage rolls at 17th level). If he is using his duelist stance, this damage bonus increases by 2.
An Ustalavic Duelist also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the Ustalavic Duelist's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
That makes it clear he doesn't have Weapon Training but still does the same thing. Takes up extra space in the copy, though.
Huh, just realized that unlike the base fighter the Ustalavic Duelist caps out at +4/+4. Not an issue in normal PFS play but if you're using Gloves of Dueling you wouldn't get an increase at level 13 or 17 (because you already hit the cap).
thanks Kevin for weighing in on this.
0. yeah but it was also to discuss a possible pfs build, sadly pfs doesnt have advice subboard.
1.yep and I intend to buy them. but right now with buying quests and campaigns player companion and a pathfinder con next month my pathfinder budget is spent for the time^^
my math on the damage is as follows:
duelist training2 = +2dmg while in duelist stance its +4
gloves of dueling = +2 on the weapon training bonus (I dont believe it gets doubled if I fulfill duelist stance)
so this equals +6dmg and trained grace says my weapon training bonus damage gets doubled if I hit with dex and damage with strength.
= +12 damage.
not sure if I did it correct but I hope that explains how I came up with 12.
Kevin Willis wrote: Overall I think this could be a very interesting build rather than the super-specialized ones we see so often. Good luck! thanks that's what I was aiming for a versatile build that can be effectively used in different pfs scenarios.
and also thanks to Nefreet, that was another question of mine, about the armor issue. However I could only afford a mithral breastplate a little down the road which might make some other trait a better early pick.
another question I just realized, I do pick up imp unarmed strike. could I full round with a rapier and my offhand hand and still qualify for duelist stance? or is my hand no longer free if I attack? I know I would lose the buckler bonus for that round but sometimes it might be worth it.
Weapon Training (EX) is not the same as weapon training. The archetype loses the first step of Weapon Training and gains Duelist Training (EX) in its place. Other archetype class features replace later steps. The "for" should have been "from", all other references should have removed the word "weapon" for clarity. So, since you do not have the Weapon Training class ability, you do not benefit from Trained Grace, Gloves of Dueling or the like.
Duelist Stance gives you significant bonuses at no cost, including +2 on damage once you get Duelist Training, plus the other class features later on.
It looks like this was from a soft cover booster book where the editing may not have been up to standards, so interpreting it for the best possible build gain may not be the correct course.
The build otherwise looks good and fun to play.
That seems total bullshit to be honest and contradicts all clarifications on the alternative weapon training features that I have seen. Weapon Training (Ex) is the same as weapon training. Calling the bonuses of Dueling Stance significant is pretty bold statement, considering it takes 10 levels just to beat picking the Dodge feat.
If dueling training does not act as weapon training (it does) then the archetype is pretty much useless compared to a normal fighter and that's not a place where any archetype wants to be.
Anyway, having said that - I had much fun with a Tiefling Ustalavic Duelist, although my experience might be a bit tainted by the fact that I rolled oversized limbs on the Variant Tiefling Ability table and we had a wizard in the party kind enough to craft my ancestral weapon into a Sun Blade.
I was considering Kirin Style at first, but sidetracked into a dirty trick build and never found the time to add a second style to my repertoire. This also makes the build considerably less MAD without the focus on Int.
1. Fighter 1 (Ustalavic Duelist, Mutation Warrior): Weapon Focus
2. Dirty Fighting, Bravery +1
3. Improved Dirty Trick, Mutagen
4. Weapon Finesse
5. Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Grace, Duelist Training
6. Vital Strike, Bravery +2
7. Cloak and Dagger Style, Discovery: Wings
8. Monk 1 (Master of Many Styles): Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge, IUS
9. MoMS 2: Cloak and Dagger Tactics, Step Up
10. Greater Dirty Trick
11. Advanced Weapon Training: Warrior's Spirit, Precise Thrust
12. Greater Weapon Focus, Bravery +3
13. Improved Vital Strike, Discovery: Vestigial Arm
14. Dirty Trick Master
15. Flyby Attack, Advanced Weapon Training: Armed Bravery, Science of the Blade
16. Extra Discovery: Greater Mutagen, Bravery +4
17. Greater Vital Strike, Discovery: Grand Mutagen
18. Combat Reflexes
19. Disruptive, Surgical Strike
20. Greater Weapon Focus, Bravery +5
The Ustalavic Duelist synergises very well with the Mutation Warrior archetype, as it retains the Armor Training needed for Mutation Warrior while not getting a lot out of it (you need to wear light armor to benefit from the stance). Mutation warrior is probably one of the best fighter archetypes and will go a long way towards keeping your character powerful and relevant despite the Ustalavic Duelist not being the strongest archetype. You also get to fly around on sweet wings @level 7.
I think Kirin Strike is just a bit too fumbly. The first time you encounter each enemy you have to spend a round identifying it with Kirin Style and only benefit from Strike on subsequent rounds. It also eats your swift actions every single round. I personally would stay away from the Kirin Strike feat, though you can still pick up some INT and use it
I believe your reading of Duelist Training is correct. +4/+12 with gloves of dueling is excellent, but it really only makes up for how wielding weapons one-handed is a strategy that has significantly lower damage. The bonus is much more reasonable once you consider that fact.
I believe the problem with advanced weapon training and all the fighter archetypes is that advanced wpn training is the latest contribution to the fighter class and did therefore no exist when those archetypes were created. This obviously calls for an errata. Same thing happened to the unchained monk they wanted to upgrade him and took all the archetypes away with it. In a private group I could certainly get the dm to approve this build. Cause as you said the bonus damage just helps him to keep up. Even with it he's far away from broken. But until i find a geoup pfs is all I have. So I need someone with authority to confirm this or I won't be able to play it. Anyway thanks for all the advice I will definitely look into your build but im on the move right now.
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