Please let me know what you think about my Gun Juggler build:
Dex 16 (+2)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 12
Gunslinger = normal Gunslinger
Bard = Juggler
Monk = Far Strike Monk
Alchemist = Grenadier
1st
Gunslinger 1
Deeds: Deadeye, Gunslinger's Dodge, Quick Clear, Grit, Gunsmithing, Two-Weapon Fighting (human), Deadly Aim (1st)
2nd
Bard 1
Fast Reactions: Deflect Arrows (bonus), Bardic Performance, Cantrips, Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1
3rd
Bard 2
Combat Juggling, Evasion, Point-Blank Shot (3rd)
4th
Monk 1
Flurry of Blows, Precise Shot (bonus), Fast Thrower: Quick Draw (bonus), Unarmed Strike (bonus)
5th
Gunslinger 2
Nimble +1, Rapid Shot (5th)
6th
Gunslinger 3
Deeds: Gunslinger's Initiative, Pistol Whip, Utility Shot
7th
Gunslinger 4
Weapon Focus (bonus), Empty Quiver Style (7th)
8th
Gunslinger 5
Gun Training 1
9th
Alchemist 1
Alchemy, Bomb 1d6, Extra Bombs (bonus), Mutagen, Throw Anything, Stabbing Shot (9th)
10th
Alchemist 2
Discovery: Explosive Bomb, Alchemical Weapon, Precise Bombs (bonus)
11th
Monk 2
Evasion, Far Shot (bonus), Empty Quiver Flexibility (11th)
12th
Gunslinger 6
Nimble +2
Important Items:
Handy Haversack
Gunman's Duster
This is for PFS play.
So the idea here is to be able to juggle guns to help with reloading and be able to throw other things when not shooting guns. This would allow him to two weapon fight with guns and still be able to reload. The rest of the build also lends itself well to throwing weapons.
I considered taking out the Alchemist levels and extra Monk level and just going with more Gunslinger. It would still give him the same amount of feats except Precise Bombs and Throw Anything (which would be less important though still good) and more BAB, Deeds and Gun Training 2. Regarding the Far Strike Monk level it is there for efficiency. It gets me 2 feats for one level. It also helps pick up some nice saves, allows me to go unarmored cutting out the cost of armor and making that Gunman's Duster that much more desirable. It also gives me Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat for when I'm out of weapons or cannot bring them with me. Flurry of Throws pretty much goes to waste as it doesn't stack with Two-Weapon Fighting or work with Guns at all. It is honestly hard to imagine why most Gunslingers DON'T go with a level of Far Strike Monk. A second level of Monk adds to saves again and gives another bonus feat while picking up another BAB.
I also considered taking MORE levels of Alchemist. That would give me the ability to get to Explosive Missile and more higher level extracts. Explosive Missile is very thematic and it works well with the build. The down side is that it would give less total feats which I am already short on.
I also also considered going with some levels of Fighter to get more feats and Weapon Training (+Gloves of Dueling).
There are some other feats that are missing here that I would have really have liked to work in. Rapid Reload would have been good to pick up but I can't find where to fit it in at. I understand how good it is but I also figure I could buy multiple guns and juggle them. I also could just throw things when I am finished with the bullets in one gun. I figure with the extra "hand" I will be able to use Pepperboxes without trouble. I think most GMs would allow me to reload two of them at once, even.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting is also something I regret not being able to fit in. Since the whole idea of the build is around firing as many guns as many times as possible it would be great. Sadly, I'm not sure where I would fit it.
Also, there is the third feat in the Empty Quiver line: Empty Quiver Flurry. This could solve the reloading issue. Again, not sure what I could skip to get it in any sooner.
Not sure how to solve these issues but if I could then the build would be perfect. Alas, I cannot have it all.
A couple of questions I had was exactly how far does Empty Quiver Flexibility go? Weapon Focus should apply. What about Gun Training? Deadly Aim should work with it right?
Aw... still nuthin?
Stabbing shot is elf-only, and you're human with no racial heritage shenanigans. This also indirectly cuts out empty quiver flexibility.
Stabbing shot is elf-only, and you're human with no racial heritage shenanigans. This also indirectly cuts out empty quiver flexibility.
Empty quiver style lets one ignore the elf race requirement for stabbing shot.
I think the easiest method to obtain two weapon fighting with a Gunslinger is the Maverick archetype for early, condition free access to Gun Twirling. It also has some cool features and free access to Improved Unarmed Strike, which has some decent uses in of itself. I recommend checking it out here
I think the easiest method to obtain two weapon fighting with a Gunslinger is the Maverick archetype for early, condition free access to Gun Twirling. It also has some cool features and free access to Improved Unarmed Strike, which has some decent uses in of itself. I recommend checking it out here
I plan on using the maverick archetype for easy gun twirling tone extra cool with the pepperbox pistol, but decided to forgo TWF because I need to invest feats for PBS, precise shot, and clustered shot.
I think the easiest method to obtain two weapon fighting with a Gunslinger is the Maverick archetype for early, condition free access to Gun Twirling. It also has some cool features and free access to Improved Unarmed Strike, which has some decent uses in of itself. I recommend checking it out here
Maverick gives this:
Gun Twirl (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the maverick has at least 1 grit point, she can use flashy gunplay to intimidate her opponents. She gains the Dazzling Display feat and can use it with any firearm, even if she doesn't have Weapon Focus in that firearm.
That isn't the same as the Gun Twirling Feat:
Prerequisite(s): Amateur Gunslinger feat or grit class feature, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus.
Benefit(s): You can spend 1 grit point to make a feint attempt using a one-handed firearm for which you have Weapon Focus (instead of a melee weapon). The target of this feint must be within 30 feet of you and be able to see you.
If you have the Quick Draw feat, you can holster a one-handed firearm as a free action as long as you have at least 1 grit point.
The important part is one lets you holster as a free action, the other doesn't. Either way this doesn't help the Juggler who can do that kind of thing anyway.
Also, I don't know why ANY gunslinger wouldn't want to take 1 level of Far Strike Monk. Getting a free bonus feat (Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot or Precise Shot), Quick Draw, Unarmed Strike (and not just the crappy feat version but the nice, shiny Monk version), +2 to all saves and the option to go armorless without sucking seems too hard to pass up in my humble opinion. Especially as even whilst going armorless you can still wear a Gunman's Duster and keep all your spiffy Monkness intact.
Gun twirl deed gives Dazzling Display feat when the maverick has 1 grit, which helps with the Gun Twirling prereqs.
As for why some don't take far strike monk level: alignment, don't wanna multiclass/wanna rush to gunslinger level 5 for firearm/pistol/musket training, not really caring about precise shot at low levels, like wearing armor and/or not a great wisdom.
Protoman: The part I was taking issue with is that Garbage-Tier Waifu said, "the Maverick archetype for early, condition free access to Gun Twirling" which isn't exactly accurate. It gives Gun Twirl, not Gun Twirling. Sure, it qualifies you for it. But it doesn't give it to you. When I read her post I thought that is what she was saying and it seemed too good to be true. I was not surprised to find out that it was, in fact, too good to be true.
While I can see the alignment angle ..."A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities." I can also see wanting to rush to level 5 for the training.
...the rest of it I don't see. I have yet to find a primary ranged attacker who doesn't care about precise shot ever. Maybe not prioritizing it above other feats but I'm sure negating that -4 is a pretty big deal if ranged attacking is your normal routine. In fact, you had just previously made the point of not being able to fit TWF into a build because you "need to invest feats for PBS, precise shot, and clustered shot".
Also, just because you have the ability to go armorless doesn't mean you you have to take that option. Its kind of like wanting to take levels in Far Strike Monk for the bonus feats due to most Gunslingers feeling feat starved but not doing it due to reasons (some of which you mentioned).
Not trying to be combative here, just making the point that a 1 level dip of Far Strike Monk gives an awful lot to ranged characters. Some would say too much to not at least consider.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh I was totally tempted by the far strike monk. But I decided to forgo it because I wanted to get to gunslinger 5 ASAP to get into Shieldmarshal prestige class faster, and didn't wanna lose the BAB, wanted a neutral or chaotic alignment for the fun-loving gambler character, and still get the level 7 deeds at level 9 with Shieldmarhsal's gunmarshal class feature, needed the favoured class benefit for extra skill points for prestige class prereqs AND other skills I wanted for the character. I got a policy of trying to have as much fun with a build as soon as possible in PFS rather than delaying things for it to be fun later and it only being short-lived with the level-cap for the scenarios and I wanted the prestige class more than anything for my character idea. And in general I don't like multiclassing when I don't absolutely need to. If I can do everything I need with one class I'd rather go that way.
My PFS maverick pistoler gunslinger just hit level 4 with Weapon Focus (pepperbox), Quick Draw, Gun Twirling, and Deadly Aim. Likely to get Rapid Reload at level 5 as combat is lasting a lot longer than in lower levels. The character does fine with current feats and always mixing it up throwing wooden stakes (they're free!), fighting and threatening unarmed, or quick drawing a sword instead of reloading.
The character is also an experiment on still being cowboy-like without all the other annoyingness of gunslingers dominating scenarios GMs (I included) have found about certain usual builds: Not planning on Rapid Shot, Snap Shot line of feats, or Rapid Reload free-action-extravaganza to keep track of in combat, and more balanced stats with a decent strength to go into melee with fist or special material melee weapons).
After 5 I'm either going TWF at 7, ITWF at 9, and GTWF at 11; or PBS at 7, Precise Shot 9, Clustered Shots 11 (these feats might be earlier if I don't bother with Rapid Reload and get Improved Critical or Improved Precise Shot at 11). I consider both rather gravy at this point and will decide as I play further. Probably the latter because the idea of enchanting two weapons AND still paying for ammo is a giant UGH. Even if I decide not to dual wield, I like the Gun Twirling feat cuz I like sheathing as a free action to have both hands free at a moment's notice without having to drop the gun.
Protoman: The part I was taking issue with is that Garbage-Tier Waifu said, "the Maverick archetype for early, condition free access to Gun Twirling" which isn't exactly accurate. It gives Gun Twirl, not Gun Twirling. Sure, it qualifies you for it. But it doesn't give it to you. When I read her post I thought that is what she was saying and it seemed too good to be true. I was not surprised to find out that it was, in fact, too good to be true.
My bad :P
But it IS the quickest, cleanest way to get Gun Twirling as soon as you need it. And not many builds can hope to have Gun Twirling so early or so easily. While you can't reasonably get it before the standard Point-Blank, Precise Shot Rapid Reload tax feats, you can get a feat line like this by 5th as a human
1st: Point-Blank Shot, Precise shot
3rd: Conditional Dazzling Display, Quick Draw
4th: Weapon Focus
5th: Gun Twirling
No other *cough*pure gunslinger*cough* build can get that feat line so quickly. Hence my enthusiasm I guess. TWF with firearms is some stupidly good s*!*. You DM may even tell you to put away the character because of how good it is. Though you'll want Pepperboxs. Or to hold off on Gun Twirling and thus TWF for a bit.
Edit: But then I looked up the feats you get with Far Strike Monk and well that is just silly broken. Totally take the level in Far Strike Monk. Loss of BAB doesn't matter too much for this.
|
At 9th level, take a level of Fighter. The bonus feat from Fighter gives you Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. You push Alchemist back a level, and your level 12 becomes the second level of Monk instead. So instead of Far Shot for 1 level of your PFS career, you get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting for 3 levels. I'm actually not sure why you need the second level of Monk at all. You qualify for Empty Quiver Flexibility without it, as far as I can tell. It looks like you're taking it for the bonus feat, which Fighter would also give. The 6th level of Gunslinger doesn't really do anything for you, so I'd probably go Fighter at 12+ for the bonus feats. Or take more Alchemist if you want.
I don't know if Weapon Training stacks with Gun Training. Their bonuses are completely different, but I know there are some FAQs around what counts as Weapon Training. If they stack, Weapon Master gives you Weapon Training after three levels, and opens up the Weapon Mastery feats and Advanced Weapon Training. Plus a nice bonus to hit and damage, especially with gloves of dueling.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Got back to my home computer. This is the progression I was toying with a little while back for a TWF Jugglar Gunslinger. I left my Juggler levels until later, on the theory I didn't really need them until I picked up TWF, and that getting the Gunslinger 5 was more of a priority than extra attacks.
The Fighter Levels are Weapon Master. Again, as far as I can tell, Weapon Training and Gun Training stack, but I could be wrong about that. This would also be a Human.
1 Gunslinger 1) Rapid Reload (Pistol), H) Point Blank Shot
2 Gunslinger 2) Nimble
3 Gunslinger 3) Rapid Shot
4 Gunslinger 4) B) Precise Shot
5 Gunslinger 5) Gun Training, Deadly Aim
6 Bard 1) Deflect Arrows
7 Bard 2) Juggling, Evasion, Two-Weapon Fighting
8 Fighter 1) B) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9 Fighter 2) Weapon Focus (Pistol), B) Improved Critical (Pistol)
10 Fighter 3) Weapon Training (Firearms)
11 Fighter 4) B) Weapon Specialization (Guns)
The damage takes a huge leap at 5th, adding both Dex to damage and Deadly Aim at the same level. By sticking with mostly full-BAB levels, you've got the +8 BAB for Improved Critical at 9th level.
You pick up Two-Weapon Fighting as soon as you qualify to reload with Juggling, and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting a level later. So there's another big jump in damage at levels 7 and 8. At level 7, you go from 2 attacks a round to 4 attacks a round (Main hand, Rapid Shot, Off hand, Main Hand Iterative), and at 8th, you add the Off Hand Iterative.
You're BAB progression stays relatively intact for Deadly Aim. You hit +8 BAB at 9th, getting you to -3/+6. With dips in three 3/4 BAB classes, you don't get to +8 BAB until 11th level.
I'll admit that Alchemist is a great dip despite the loss of BAB. Mutagen and extracts alone can boost your dex significantly. And the concept of throwing multiple things while firing is fun.
EDIT: Forgot to mention... For Seeker level play, at 12th level you hit +11 BAB, that along with devoting your Fighter Bonus feat to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting gets you to 7 attacks per round.
I think it is Inner Sea Intrigue?
Oh, wow. Just checked back on this thread. That is a good build, Ferious Thune. Thank you for posting it. I think your build is more powerful than mine but I like the Alchemist for flavor reasons. You do have a point about pushing back the Juggler levels, though. At least from a mechanics standpoint. Your build's damage should be crazy high.