So a Druid and a Technomancer set out to destroy each other...

[CoeusFreeze]

This query has sort of hounded me ever since I discovered class based on technology and magic would exist in starfinder. What is generally expected to happen should such individuals attempt to go toe to toe with a pathfinder druid?

For reference, I'm curious about three scenarios:
1. 8th-level druid and an 8th-level technomancer square off in a fight with no time to prepare.
2. A 20th-level druid and a 20th-level technomancer square off in a fight, both with intent to destroy the other.
3. A 20th-level druid and a 20th-level technomancer are on opposite sides of the planet and have a lot of time to study up and prepare before the conflict.

Is the technomancer going to be strong or versatile enough to deal with a foe who is harnessing the power of the gods to contain technological advancement, or does it fall sort in terms of capabilities when trying to foil something as strong as a Tier 1 caster?

[Aelreth]

Considering we haven't actually SEEN the new Technomancer yet this is going to be mostly guess work. But IF I had to make a guess, substituting in the Wizard since we don't HAVE the Technomancer stats yet.

1. 8th level Druid vs 8th level Wizard. Both are going to have access to 4th level spells. But the Druid is going to have more HP(d8 vs d6), higher will save (since druids use WIS) probably a higher AC(armor vs none), and more class abilities(wild shape, etc). While the wizard COULD win with the right build and prepared spells, the druid will probably win more often. I am also assuming this is a general wizard build and not an anti-druid build.

2. At 20th level, assuming the same restrictions are in place (no prep work, just random encounter in the wilderness) you still have a similar situation. Both have 9th level spells but the Druid has more HP, a higher will save, and more class abilities. Again a Wizard COULD win, but my money is on the Druid.

3. THIS is were the Wizard is going to win. While a Druid can probably do something creative with their prep time it is WIZARDS that thrive in it. With a wider selection of spells and prep time to actually pick out just the spells to win a fight. Combined with potential item creation, minion summoning/creation, etc. With prep time involved I would put my money on the Wizard. Hell a true Technomancer would probably just go full Evil Scientist and make a doomsday weapon.

The problem with this is that while we know what a Wizard can do, we do not currently have stats for the Technomancer yet. Nor do we know new items, special abilities, etc. So this is ALL conjecture.

[Steven "Troll" O'Neal]

Presumably a technomancer will be proficient in technology, he may not even need much magic to take the druid.

[Umbral Reaver]

The druid can't hit targets in orbit.

The technomancer can hit targets from orbit.

:P

[Jamie Charlan]

CoeusFreeze wrote:

Is the technomancer going to be strong or versatile enough to deal with a foe who is harnessing the power of the gods to contain technological advancement, or does it fall sort in terms of capabilities when trying to foil something as strong as a Tier 1 caster?

Firstly, though this is often forgotten due to horrific failures of achieving the intended values particularly between haves and martials in earlier d20 works: a class and level system should mean that - while there are numerous individual differences/specialties/etc - overall two individuals of a given level have generally the same level of capability.

So if, say, one character, of ANY class, can utterly cancel and override another character at, say, level 10, then one of those is clearly not operating at the level of the other one, and something drastic needs to change.

That said; when you consider things like fluff to go with mechanics then you have to also consider what they can do mechanically, not just what they sound like. If gods negate the very existence of technology at a whim, then you're going to have to reach very very far up your buttocks indeed to justify how or why there even IS technology still in the setting of that hated level. Why would there be when all it takes to screw it all to hell's a prayer?

So what does that tell us?
Either A) the mechanics and fluff were written with so much disregard for one-another that any character concept, location or story will fight itself to a vicious death with every last shred of power they may have (congratulations, you're 2nd edition Exalted)

Or B) but He could do nothing against the inhabitants of the Spaceships, for their machines would violate spacetime like armed and horny tentacles

Or C)"technology is the new god" takes things one too many steps towards the literal, and once all that delicious energy starts going to people's gear instead of them, things'll get rather Ork-y.

[Malwing]

Both are assimilated by Phyrexians. Phyrexians do not distinguish between magic and artifice. All will be one.

[Claxon]

Is the technomancer a class that needs to try to assimilate the whole world into technology in the same sort of way that a druid is trying to protect nature from being impinged on by civilization?

I don't think so. So why does the technomancer even care? He probably has no desire to kill the druid, though the druid might desire to kill him.

[Jamie Charlan]

It probably isn't/shouldn't, but rather some nanite-programmer or electrokine.

[Kylo "Cricket" Johnson]

My guess is that the druids will have been hunted down by those with technological advancements and that druids will be "obsolete". Their kind will be no longer a class, as there is no room for a class that will be practically gone. Or that they will have come to terms or even accepted technology as a force that cannot be crushed and so therefore be used in a manner that is agreeable with nature.

Or maybe they were too attached to the nature of Golarion to leave the planet, even if big letters in the sky said: LEAVE NOW OR YOU'LL FEEL PAIN THAT YOU'VE NEVER FELT BEFORE.

[Umbral Reaver]

Can an AI become a druid?

[Jamie Charlan]

Don't see why 'druids' would have to be hunted down. Rather it's the kinds of terrain they deal with that are different (and the ones trying to keep hard vacuum pristine are probably seen as going a little far by other druids too). Perhaps some druids will have to accept that they can protect a forest a lot better given a GPS unit and a couple of motion trackers though.

Tech/Magic shouldn't really be at odds with one-another anyways, since the former is merely an application of existing discoveries. What do you think a wand is? Someone figured out a way to store a whole bunch of spells for later, in a portable, easy-to-use way that doesn't involve blowing your own brains out from storing eldritch patterns way above capacity. The entire "magic items" section of any game is nothing more or less than metaphysics-based technology.

You're just as likely to see a fireball amplifier granting a ship's mage's spells the full backing of a fusion reactor, or stabilizing fields protecting life-support from nasty little dispels, and an AI with technological geomancy sounds rather fun.

[IonutRO]

From my understanding a technomancer is simply someone who uses the scientific method when employing magic. Meaning magic and science are not t odds at all in starfinder.

[Rook13]

IonutRO wrote:

From my understanding a technomancer is simply someone who uses the scientific method when employing magic. Meaning magic and science are not t odds at all in starfinder.

Unfortunately, the definition of "technomancer" seems to be rather varied. I've always held that technomancy is a magic that:

a) uses technology as an inherent component of its magic (as a cleric might use a divine focus);
b) uses supernatural power primarily to affect technology (often in a setting where affecting technology with magic is difficult);
c) uses magic & technology interchangeably, as though they were the same force;
d) uses technology to affect &/or produce magic;
&/or e) uses a magic inherent in or from technology.
(There may be others, but that's top of my head).

As far as I see it, a wizard -- or a sorcerer, a cleric, even a druid -- can both use magic and apply the scientific method, even apply it to their magic. Magic has rules, after all. One characteristic of a "technomancer," IMHO, must be a study of (or gift for) both magic & tech, as a magus studies both magic and weaponry. I can see room for other paradigms (like someone with a supernatural gift for tech), but to my mind these aren't quite "technomancers," even if they practice "technomancy" (as defined above) as well. Seems to me the best definition of "technomancer" is a specialist who practices technomancy, as an evoker practices evocation, or a magus practices martial magic.

[Rook13]

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Can an AI become a druid?

Can an android from Golarion become a druid? To a certain extent, the same principles apply, within limits. A physical limitation would prevent taking some classes, but I don't see what would bar an AI from being a druid (excepting the lack of a soul preventing the use of all divine magic). Might not be able to use all class features, tho'.

[Rook13]

Jamie Charlan wrote:

... a fireball amplifier granting a ship's mage's spells the full backing of a fusion reactor...

THIS!!!

[Kobold Catgirl]

The question is, if an AI is a druid, does it have to create a container for itself that isn't made of metal?

...

...Man, I really wish we'd had this talk, like, four days ago.

[BigNorseWolf]

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Can an AI become a druid?

yes

[Kobold Catgirl]

Thank you for introducing me to that. Now I really, really want to play a sad warforged druid with a little bird. Someone please start an Eberron game where I can do that.

[Jamie Charlan]

Rook13 wrote:

Jamie Charlan wrote:

... a fireball amplifier granting a ship's mage's spells the full backing of a fusion reactor...

THIS!!!

Just to note; in one particular game series, psionics (and for the most part most magic as well) is so feeble that it takes vehicles to power them to a useful degree (usually giant robots). Psychics are but people with abnormal brainwaves, until you hook them up to a powerplant and make something useful out of them.

Vehicles also show themselves to be very useful when the bigger the runes/magic-circles/etc the more effective the results. Hell, what's every starfleet vessel's deflector dish if not space magic anyways?

Another one where this was the case was System Shock, where you plugged a little high-tech amplifier ball into your arm to use your psi abilities.

[IonutRO]

Rook13 wrote:

IonutRO wrote:

From my understanding a technomancer is simply someone who uses the scientific method when employing magic. Meaning magic and science are not t odds at all in starfinder.

Unfortunately, the definition of "technomancer" seems to be rather varied. I've always held that technomancy is a magic that:

a) uses technology as an inherent component of its magic (as a cleric might use a divine focus);
b) uses supernatural power primarily to affect technology (often in a setting where affecting technology with magic is difficult);
c) uses magic & technology interchangeably, as though they were the same force;
d) uses technology to affect &/or produce magic;
&/or e) uses a magic inherent in or from technology.
(There may be others, but that's top of my head).

As far as I see it, a wizard -- or a sorcerer, a cleric, even a druid -- can both use magic and apply the scientific method, even apply it to their magic. Magic has rules, after all. One characteristic of a "technomancer," IMHO, must be a study of (or gift for) both magic & tech, as a magus studies both magic and weaponry. I can see room for other paradigms (like someone with a supernatural gift for tech), but to my mind these aren't quite "technomancers," even if they practice "technomancy" (as defined above) as well. Seems to me the best definition of "technomancer" is a specialist who practices technomancy, as an evoker practices evocation, or a magus practices martial magic.

I meant that that's the concept of the Technomancer class in Starfinder, not that it's the singular, indisputable, immutable meaning of the english word "technomancer".

[Anthony Adam]

Scotty was a druidic technomancer - he knew how well the Enterprise was operating by feel and was always something of a miracle worker!

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

What kind of technomancer are you talking about? One from the still largely ignorant Technic League of Numeria who is limited by a far from complete access to high tech? or someone brought in from Androffa at it's prime?

Arena matchups are very unrealistic... more than likely each would try to make it's battle in a place favorable to it or at least unfavorable to the other.

[Rook13]

IonutRO wrote:

I meant that that's the concept of the Technomancer class in Starfinder, not that it's the singular, indisputable, immutable meaning of the english word "technomancer".

Have we seen a preview or overview of a Technomancer for Starfinder? (If so, please direct me to where I can see it!)

That said, I just got hit with the idea (Thank You DaveB of grrlpowercomic.com) of a tech/magic combo that I'd love to see included in Starfinder: Spell Programmer, who manipulates magic like technology.