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Okay, so Mythic Monsters have their own abilities, they don't get the same tiers as players normally, but they do still get their choice of feats.
SO, I have two questions, but first a request.
Please don't say "Ask your GM" or any such thing. That's not helpful to anyone, especially not when odds are a person asking a question in this forum is either a GM themselves or they are in some way needing an answer from someone other than 'their GM'
Now, first of all can a Mythic Monster take the Dual Path feat and get one of the special powers from a player path?
Then second, while I realize that by the RAW it can only be taken once even by players, could a monster take "Extra Path Ability" to gain either a Universal power, or if they already had Dual Path above, a player tier power?
As written, no a Mythic Monster cannot take Dual Path (Mythic) as the Prerequisite is "1st mythic tier" and Mythic Monsters have Mythic Ranks.
All Feats can only be taken more than once only if they state as such - the default is once only.
But, under the design rules for Mythic Monsters Additional Mythic Abilities: "These abilities should be thematically appropriate for the creature." So there is room to design a creature that is thematically correct with the Mythic Path special Abilities, especially if the creature has Character Levels or Spells usable as an Nth level caster.
There is no reason a monster cannot take mythic tiers, just as there is no reason a monster cannot have class levels.
Khudzlin,
It would have been better to quote the statement a few sentences later from the Mythic Rank section - "A few mythic monsters have mythic tier abilities identical to those available to PCs; a monster's mythic rank counts as its tier for any effects dependent on tier."
So to answer Zelda's original question, Yes it is well within the rules to design a creature with PC Mythic abilities and it does not appear that they need to take the Dual Path Feat to have them.
Basically, anything the DM likes, goes.
Speaking for myself, I am not bothered by semantics like tiers and ranks. If I think it is a good way to get a concept working, the monster can do so.
And the universal path is accessible to all players anyway, so I won't hesitate for my critters. The important thing is that they don't get more MP and abilities than they should have. It is less important what those abilities are.
In the case of your vampire I don't see him as a monster with mythic ranks, but as a NPC with class and tiers, who also happens to be an undead.
Mythic play requires a bit more flexibility than the normal game, which goes in both directions. You have to expect a lot more from the PCs, and you need to tailor your challenges to their power. Designing the mobs to your taste is the part where a DM can have some fun.
As an user of the ELH I advise not to go overboard with mythics, either ;)
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Okay, so Mythic Monsters have their own abilities, they don't get the same tiers as players normally, but they do still get their choice of feats.
SO, I have two questions, but first a request.
Please don't say "Ask your GM" or any such thing. That's not helpful to anyone, especially not when odds are a person asking a question in this forum is either a GM themselves or they are in some way needing an answer from someone other than 'their GM'
Now, first of all can a Mythic Monster take the Dual Path feat and get one of the special powers from a player path?
Then second, while I realize that by the RAW it can only be taken once even by players, could a monster take "Extra Path Ability" to gain either a Universal power, or if they already had Dual Path above, a player tier power?
Firstly, if you are designing a mythic monster, id assume you are the GM. its a GM question. And therefore you shouldn't get the Ask your GM statement but the corralary "You're the GM. What you say goes". If you want a mythic vampire with Player tier powers, go right ahead. You make the rules, remember.
If you aren't the GM, why aren't you using player rules?
Now, I disagree with your take that Ask your GM is a bad answer. Its a great answer. a lot of the fuzzy questions players ask on these boards are subject to table variation, and no answer they get from the boards will be strong or definitive. If a GM is open about the fact that he is soliciting advice on how to handle the rules question, instead of just stating the rules question, he'll get a lot less "ask your GM" and the like and a lot more serious advice, because people will know who and what they are talking to.
The question you asked is a player question, namely "Do the rules allow me to do this generic thing which the rules are ambiguous about?" That's a classic Ask your GM, because ambiguity is best settled by the GM. But since you aren't using the player mythic rules, you must be a GM, and therefore you must have some other concern other than what the rules say. And that comes down to why your question confuses me. You are asking a rules question about a section of the rules that are ambiguous at best, but its from a GM stance so you have the power to interpret the rules, and you aren't openly asking for advice as to how to make this ruling, but a hard and fast rule that is official or at least approved by the group id, which is a player position. So be clear - are you a GM looking for advice on how to rule, or are you a player looking for a ruling?
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Okay, so Mythic Monsters have their own abilities, they don't get the same tiers as players normally, but they do still get their choice of feats.
SO, I have two questions, but first a request.
Please don't say "Ask your GM" or any such thing. That's not helpful to anyone, especially not when odds are a person asking a question in this forum is either a GM themselves or they are in some way needing an answer from someone other than 'their GM'
Now, first of all can a Mythic Monster take the Dual Path feat and get one of the special powers from a player path?
Then second, while I realize that by the RAW it can only be taken once even by players, could a monster take "Extra Path Ability" to gain either a Universal power, or if they already had Dual Path above, a player tier power?
Firstly, if you are designing a mythic monster, id assume you are the GM. its a GM question. And therefore you shouldn't get the Ask your GM statement but the corralary "You're the GM. What you say goes". If you want a mythic vampire with Player tier powers, go right ahead. You make the rules, remember.
If you aren't the GM, why aren't you using player rules?
Now, I disagree with your take that Ask your GM is a bad answer. Its a great answer. a lot of the fuzzy questions players ask on these boards are subject to table variation, and no answer they get from the boards will be strong or definitive. If a GM is open about the fact that he is soliciting advice on how to handle the rules question, instead of just stating the rules question, he'll get a lot less "ask your GM" and the like and a lot more serious advice, because people will know who and what they are talking to.
The question you asked is a player question, namely "Do the rules allow me to do this generic thing which the rules are ambiguous about?" That's a classic Ask your GM, because ambiguity is best settled by the GM. But since you aren't using the player mythic rules, you must be a GM, and therefore you...
No, if someone comes to these forums with a question, odds are they want advice from other players, or whatever. So "Ask your GM" or "You are the GM" is still WORTHLESS.
Also, the rules state that a character with Mythic Tiers that becomes a vampire loses all Mythic Tiers and gains an equal number of Mythic Rank as a Mythic Vampire. That's not ambiguous, nor does it say 'this is not for players' any more than the base vampire template already is not for players. So, I very well COULD be a player and still have this question... I'm not a player, but I could be. So again, your insistence to be a jerk and tell me why I should be happy to receive the answer of "Ask your GM" or "You're the GM" really just pisses me off.
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Basically, anything the DM likes, goes.
Speaking for myself, I am not bothered by semantics like tiers and ranks. If I think it is a good way to get a concept working, the monster can do so.
And the universal path is accessible to all players anyway, so I won't hesitate for my critters. The important thing is that they don't get more MP and abilities than they should have. It is less important what those abilities are.In the case of your vampire I don't see him as a monster with mythic ranks, but as a NPC with class and tiers, who also happens to be an undead.
Mythic play requires a bit more flexibility than the normal game, which goes in both directions. You have to expect a lot more from the PCs, and you need to tailor your challenges to their power. Designing the mobs to your taste is the part where a DM can have some fun.
As an user of the ELH I advise not to go overboard with mythics, either ;)
Well, yes and no. I do like the Mythic Vampire abilities and I think they fit her (she's an old Vampire the Masquerade character who claimed to have reached the fabled Golconda (a sort of enlightened state for a vampire where... um... something good happens?). Whether she really had or not was up to individual interpretation since they never gave actual rules for Golconda, just the various myths different vampires think Golconda is) however, the "Beyond Morality" also fits her concept too, and so I wanted to see if there was anything "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet." about Ranks and Tiers before I decided what I'm doing with her.
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Here's my take on this (specifically looking at a Mythic Vampire).
A mythic character becomes a vampire, so becomes a mythic vampire with mythic rank equal to the original character's mythic tier.
Since we have a rule which says that mythic rank counts as mythic tier, dual path is a perfectly valid feat for the vampire to take.
However, there is one problem:
Unlike PCs, monsters usually start with a specific mythic rank and that rank never changes.
So, let's go specific: mythic wizard with archmage tier 8 becomes a vampire. Vampire is a rank 8 mythic vampire, with all of the abilities of a rank 8 mythic vampire. It gains 4 mythic feats. It may select Dual Path as one of those feats. It would be fair to say that our vampire selects Archmage as the "second" path, so it grabs one of the archmage arcana (wild arcana is your friend). Since our vampire is rank 8, it can use one of the other three mythic feats to take Extra Path Ability, and select from Universal or Archmage path abilities that it is eligible for (beyond morality being an option).
Note that the mythic vampire's rank will never increase, and therefore it will never gain any other path abilities, either as a vampire or an archmage, no matter what it does, unless the GM specifically allows it.
I can't see anything in the rules which prevents it, and the character is exchanging all of their previous mythic path abilities for the mythic vampire rank abilities and at most one path ability and one arcana/strike/call/surge/order/attack. If you're in a game where becoming a mythic character isn't a problem, becoming a mythic vampire isn't likely to break the game.
Okay, so Mythic Monsters have their own abilities, they don't get the same tiers as players normally, but they do still get their choice of feats.
SO, I have two questions, but first a request.
Please don't say "Ask your GM" or any such thing. That's not helpful to anyone, especially not when odds are a person asking a question in this forum is either a GM themselves or they are in some way needing an answer from someone other than 'their GM'
Now, first of all can a Mythic Monster take the Dual Path feat and get one of the special powers from a player path?
Then second, while I realize that by the RAW it can only be taken once even by players, could a monster take "Extra Path Ability" to gain either a Universal power, or if they already had Dual Path above, a player tier power?
This is actually covered in the beginning of the Mythic Monsters chapter, under Mythic Rank:
A creature shouldn't have both a mythic tier and a mythic rank. For example, a mythic creature that gains the vampire template has a mythic tier, and a non-mythic creature that gains the mythic vampire template has a mythic rank, but a mythic creature that becomes a mythic vampire loses its tier and gains ranks instead, as explained in the mythic vampire template. Mythic templates and other effects that grant a creature a mythic rank should include information about what happens when a mythic creature gains that template or effect.
So a creature can have one of either mythic tiers (i.e., a vampire sorcerer/archmage), a mythic simple template (i.e., an arcane vampire sorcerer), or the full mythic subtype (i.e., a mythic vampire sorcerer). This allows the GM to tailor the creature's abilities to taste: If I want a vampire with a lot of levels, but limited mythic power, then I can choose to add tiers or a mythic simple template; alternately, I can have a low-HD creature (such as an ogre) and add class levels and tiers to make a tougher than "normal" mythic encounter.
Creatures with the mythic subtype are also explicitly granted the option to have path specific and/or universal path abilities:
Additional Mythic Abilities: The monster gains a number of mythic abilities equal to its MR + 1. Such abilities can be drawn from the mythic path abilities for mythic heroes or the mythic abilities listed with the monsters in this section, or it can be a new ability you create by taking inspiration from those abilities. These abilities should be thematically appropriate for the creature.
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Okay, so Mythic Monsters have their own abilities, they don't get the same tiers as players normally, but they do still get their choice of feats.
SO, I have two questions, but first a request.
Please don't say "Ask your GM" or any such thing. That's not helpful to anyone, especially not when odds are a person asking a question in this forum is either a GM themselves or they are in some way needing an answer from someone other than 'their GM'
Now, first of all can a Mythic Monster take the Dual Path feat and get one of the special powers from a player path?
Then second, while I realize that by the RAW it can only be taken once even by players, could a monster take "Extra Path Ability" to gain either a Universal power, or if they already had Dual Path above, a player tier power?
This is actually covered in the beginning of the Mythic Monsters chapter, under Mythic Rank:
A creature shouldn't have both a mythic tier and a mythic rank. For example, a mythic creature that gains the vampire template has a mythic tier, and a non-mythic creature that gains the mythic vampire template has a mythic rank, but a mythic creature that becomes a mythic vampire loses its tier and gains ranks instead, as explained in the mythic vampire template. Mythic templates and other effects that grant a creature a mythic rank should include information about what happens when a mythic creature gains that template or effect.So a creature can have one of either mythic tiers (i.e., a vampire sorcerer/archmage), a mythic simple template (i.e., an arcane vampire sorcerer), or the full mythic subtype (i.e., a mythic vampire sorcerer). This allows the GM to tailor the creature's abilities to taste: If I want a vampire with a lot of levels, but limited mythic power, then I can choose to add tiers or a mythic simple template; alternately, I can have...
Right, but what about her mythic feats? I guess I could just spend a feat to get the additional abilities I want? As I said, she's a mythic vampire and so I like all the abilities there so no wiggle room on that part. Just also wanted to maybe add a few more with feats, however I like to keep NPCs 'legal' usually to be fair.
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Here's my take on this (specifically looking at a Mythic Vampire).
A mythic character becomes a vampire, so becomes a mythic vampire with mythic rank equal to the original character's mythic tier.
Since we have a rule which says that mythic rank counts as mythic tier, dual path is a perfectly valid feat for the vampire to take.
However, there is one problem:
Unlike PCs, monsters usually start with a specific mythic rank and that rank never changes.I can't see anything in the rules which prevents it, and the character is exchanging all of their previous mythic path abilities for the mythic vampire rank abilities and at most one path ability and one arcana/strike/call/surge/order/attack. If you're in a game where becoming a mythic character isn't a problem, becoming a mythic vampire isn't likely to break the game.
Well, note it says USUALLY. Also, it says that a Mythic Vampire's Rank is half her CR without the Mythic Ranks. So, seems to me that if she was a level 10 bard when she was made a Mythic Vampire she would be rank 5, then later got another 10 levels of bard (which could take years for a vampire ... Blood of Night says vampire PCs (even though she isn't a PC, just saying) should always use the slow progression) she would get Mythic Rank 10.
Take a look at most of the other monsters that are not class progressed. They have a set Mythic Rank, no chart of what abilities they get based on their rank... So say an Owlbear is Mythic Rank 4. ALL owlbears are Mythic Rank 4, there is no Mythic Rank 7 owlbears (except maybe that first owlbear, but he's unique) Being a class progression monster is why the mythic vampires would be that exception that justifies use of the word 'usually'
That's open to argument both ways (and the bit of my post you snipped out does cover this: usually rank can't increase for mythic monsters, but the GM can allow it).
I considered your point about gaining class levels, but rejected it because various bits of designer commentary over the years have led me to believe that "usually" means "all the time unless specifically excepted", and mythic vampire doesn't make an exception.
For a bit more clarity, though: as a GM, my post above would be my first instinct on a player asking to do this, based upon my consideration of the rules. If, during the course of play, the mythic vampire turned out to be significantly weaker than other PCs (probably due to them increasing in tier), I would consider allowing increases in rank, but it would never be just from levelling up - they would have to do something approximately equivalent to mythic trials. This puts us firmly in house rules territory which I try not to delve into too much in Rules Questions.
Technically, no, they can't take that feat. Monsters have ranks and do not possess any tiers so they cannot have dual paths.
However as someone quoted they can take any mythic ability for their ranks. So it would be perfectly fine to assign one of their mythic rank abilities to whichever path abilities you want.
Also, you do not receive extra mythic ranks just because you leveled up. There are plenty of examples in bestiary 4 and 5 of mythic monsters that do not follow that set pattern.