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It shouldn't be. Why can't a Fighter do it if they take all the feat taxes to be able to?
Because it's too powerful and would invalidate STR based options due to making the classes too SAD. To get it through Urogue requires a bigger sacrifice (3 otherwise mediocre levels).
(And no - please don't being up C/M and how it wouldn't break the entire game. It wouldn't, but it would still invalidate STR builds.)
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Besides, it only invalidates TWF with dex to damage. Finesse TWF with Str to damage works just fine, and with the fighter's trained grace AWT, the vigilante's deadly grace talent, and the unchained barbarians rage, there is plenty of rules support to make up for the loss of dex to damage when using TWF.
Removing the need of a stat from your character generally requires investment or a penalty. Particularly when you switch to a stat with a ton of side benefits like dex.
The typical penalty here is 'you have to use a terrible melee style'. As in, 1 weapon 1 handed. There are ways to make that style better, but you pretty much need to devote your entire class to that (swashbuckler).
TWF is a more optimal style, and thus, its costs are greater. Either relatively large chunk of levels into a particular class, or you spend the sizable amount of money to get two agile weapons (the price might not seem like much at first, but that drives up the price on all future upgrades... on a style that already has a tight budget with two magic weapons).
Also, it might just be a vendetta at this point. I think the devs have seen one too many 'can I do dex to damage with unarmed strikes while dervish dancing?' threads, so they are paranoid. That is the main explanation for why the revised slashing grace is so...paranoid. So maybe they are also doing it out of spite against munchkins at this point.
And discussing the slashing grace revisions, that could also be a sore point. That feat started out as a flavor feat jsut to let swashbucklers use longswords and such. But the people saying 'dex to damage dex to damage!' complained that the feat was basically worthless (but hey- most feats are worthless), so they added dex to damage as a freebie. But then people complained about it not applying to light weapons, which was intentional as part of their previous attempts to stop dex TWF. But more complaints, and thus they eventually sent out that paranoid mess.
So I guess threads like this are a likely reason why they don't do it. They had a balance decision, and still provided means to get dex to damage (agile weapons), but people still complained that they couldn't eliminate a stat cheaply.
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I don't think you can reasonably eliminate Str in a TWF build. Encumbrance is a serious factor - you don't want to go over light, you don't want to use muleback cords because they take up a needed slot, and your minimum load includes armour, three weapons, and the stuff that everybody has to have, so you're looking at str 12+ anyway. It's not like you can dump it down to 7 (unless you're doing something wacky with natural weapons and being a fox, but that's a whole different kettle of fish).
You can go down to 8ish easily, and lower if you grab Muscle of the Society. And there are other ways to deal with a low encumbrance past the first couple of levels. (Ant Haul etc.)
You can go down to 8ish easily, and lower if you grab Muscle of the Society. And there are other ways to deal with a low encumbrance past the first couple of levels. (Ant Haul etc.)I don't think you can reasonably eliminate Str in a TWF build. Encumbrance is a serious factor - you don't want to go over light, you don't want to use muleback cords because they take up a needed slot, and your minimum load includes armour, three weapons, and the stuff that everybody has to have, so you're looking at str 12+ anyway. It's not like you can dump it down to 7 (unless you're doing something wacky with natural weapons and being a fox, but that's a whole different kettle of fish).
And you are probably going to go with light armor and a couple of small weapons, such as daggers. Because it is a dex and TWF build, after all.
...and that's another reason why Path of War is great. Deadly Agility - Dex to damage AND it is not penalized for off-hand attacks.
You know, even with the existence of that feat, people still make plenty of Path of War characters with Strength.
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What is the point of your comment? We all know that STR builds are king in all D20 melee builds. Heck in PF literally all you need to kick a$$ is the biggest STR you can get, a two handed weapon and Power Attack. Some of us want to be able to bang with the big boys but not use that same lame, thoughtless build....and that's another reason why Path of War is great. Deadly Agility - Dex to damage AND it is not penalized for off-hand attacks.You know, even with the existence of that feat, people still make plenty of Path of War characters with Strength.
Paizo and a few people on this forum are deathly afraid of Dex-to-Damage. They believe it would suddenly make everyone dump Strength because the list of things Dexterity does is longer.
I'm usually fine with DEX-to-Damage builds, if done properly. But I usually watch the character to make sure they're doing everything properly.
One thing I've found people forget is encumbrance. You might be able to replace attack rolls and damage rolls with Dexterity, but your carrying capacity is not so easily ignored.
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It shouldn't be. Why can't a Fighter do it if they take all the feat taxes to be able to?Because it's too powerful and would invalidate STR based options due to making the classes too SAD. To get it through Urogue requires a bigger sacrifice (3 otherwise mediocre levels).
(And no - please don't being up C/M and how it wouldn't break the entire game. It wouldn't, but it would still invalidate STR builds.)
I disagree with it invalidating Strength. It contends with it more, but it's not going to invalidate it.
Tell me, how are they going to carry their stuff if they dump Dexterity? That's a big problem in the early game, and although it only gets easier with access to special materials which reduce weight and such, it's not exactly a picnic if you're in a game that keeps track of weight and bare essentials, like food, drink, clothing, bedrolls, etc. Sure, there are ways around it, like magic items which increase capacity (or condense it into a single, minor weight), but those are resources and funds which could be spent on other, more combat-centric things.
Also, short of being a UCRogue and picking up an Elven Curved Blade, I don't see Dex builds getting 1.5x Dexterity on their damage rolls. This is huge, primarily due that the biggest benefit to two-handed Strength builds is that they deal a lot of damage with less opportunities to miss. Ever hear of Flurry of Misses? That's what you'll get with most TWF options, especially in the early game, where you have practically zero bonuses on your to-hit.
There's also the factor of feats and resources. Sure, UCRogues get it in their base kit, and so do some other classes (namely Swashbuckler and Bolt Ace, who can get Dexterity to attack/damage on all of their manner of attacks). They also can't do so until 3rd level, or later, (unless you're a Human Swashbuckler, but even then), whereas Strength builds take off from level 1.
But if you delve into TWF, you're spending lots and lots of feats on them. Consider Power Attack/Piranha Strike, TWF, ITWF, Double Slice, and eventually Hammer the Gap (to make use of your added attacks). That's five feats you're spending, just to be equivalent to the Two-handed Strength guy; and even that's wrong, because the Two-Handed Strength guy doesn't have a -2 on all his attacks.
With those feats, he can pick up some odds and ends, like Additional Traits, Iron Will, etc. Stuff to shore up whatever weaknesses he may possess, or to further amplify his strengths (Barbarians would pick up Extra Rage Power to get the good stuff sooner, and let him pick other ones he may want, Paladins may get more Lay On Hands, and so on), compared to someone who's simply trying to be on par with the Two-handing Strength Martial.
Did I also mention Strength-based characters can be done in almost any fashion? Most Dexterity-based options require you to be a specific class or pick up a certain feat or some other backwoods nonsense that is probably not Core and isn't allowed at a lot of tables. But not Strength characters.
Lastly, consider what you can use to boost Dexterity beyond your universal Belts and level-ups; not much. Urban Barbarian allows it, and maybe some other subject which increases Dexterity, but that's it. There are more subjects which increase Strength than there are Dexterity, so it becomes an easier attribute to monopolize in comparison.
Seriously, Dexterity-builds, although they can be fun and neat to play, they are almost always not an optimal build.
I'm not sure where all the hyperbole comes from about this issue. Personally, I'm not DeAThlY AFrAiD!! of dex-to-damage TWF being as easy as taking a feat; I just happen to prefer that it isn't for a few reasons. The major one is that if you can just take a feat to get general dex-to-damage, then strength-dumped light-weapon TWF becomes completely and utterly unbalaced compared to going strength-based TWF. Personally, I would prefer that some 8STR dual-knife min-maxer not completely and utterly dominate a high-strength and high-dex dual-sword character, and I have a feeling that the design team is working with the same preference. Hopefully thst isn't too hysterical or predjudiced...
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That's not a very polite way of referring to the party fighter.
That's not a very polite way of referring to the party fighter.Entirely different. You don't have to pay 8gp for the fighter.
I know that I bought my fighter for 5 gp.
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I know that I bought my fighter for 5 gp.That's not a very polite way of referring to the party fighter.Entirely different. You don't have to pay 8gp for the fighter.
The donkeys have a better union than the Fighters.
An 8gp donkey.
Tell me, how are they going to carry their stuff if they dump Dexterity?
So, they buy a donkey? You think some jack!@# is going to solve the problem very well? Bandits called, they want their hard baits back.
When the donkey inevitably dies because [all the reasons you can possibly think of], what are they going to do? If they spend all of their investments into donkeys, they can't afford anything (or even go out adventuring) because they're too poor from buying all the donkeys.
They can't adventure without them, because then they run into the very problem they're trying to solve, "How am I going to carry the stuff I find and sell it for good cash, when I can barely carry my own equipment?"
And if they try to use anything else besides other party members, they're gonna have a bad time.
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If I'm in a fight and foes take the time to attack a donkey instead of me, that is 8gp very well spent.
Past level 3-4 it's a nonissue since there are spells like Ant Haul and items like a bag of holding.
I know that you want Encumbrance to be a major factor, but in Pathfinder with just a smidge of work/creativity, it really isn't.
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It really isn't that serious, honestly. Hell, at his point, the best Dex based fighters don't wanna use Dex to damage, given they are now fighters (The class) and Advanced Weapon Training exists.
At the end of the day, Str wins on simplicity and efficiency, no matter how easy it becomes to get Dex to damage.