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Fedorchik1536 |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Well, once again I'm frustrated with grapple rules and how people read them xD
First and the most interesting:
There seems to be two ways how people read Pin rules:
1. Some think that like in that other old pnprpg you need to choose Pin each round to maintain Pin on you opponent.
2. Others think that once you Pin someone he stays pinned untill he escapes. (which is, IMO, a little OP since it completely shutdowns enemy at the cost of two actions).
Which is the correct one? Is there a FAQ on this?
Second: Do Grab allows you to do free automatic damage in every situation or only if you choose to take -20 penalty and don't get grappled condition?
Third:
If you have Greater Grapple you can maintain twice per round. But! Do you need to actually maintain your grapple (i.e. wait to the round after you initiate grapple when you need to maintain grapple) or you just have option to do another grapple check every time you have someone grappled and a free move action to spare (for example when you initiate grapple or brake someone's grapple and choose to become primary grappler)?
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Scott Wilhelm |
1. Some think that like in that other old pnprpg you need to choose Pin each round to maintain Pin on you opponent.
No. The Pinned Condition, according to the Core Rulebook, is a more extreme form of the Grappled Condition.
Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Every successful Grapple Check maintains the Pin just as it maintains the Grapple. Also, if your Pinned Opponent makes a successful Grapple Check, he can automatically break free, or be the one in control of the Grapple. You don't have to make 2 checks: 1 to break the Pin and the other to break the Grapple.
you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can).
2. Others think that once you Pin someone he stays pinned untill he escapes. (which is, IMO, a little OP since it completely shutdowns enemy at the cost of two actions).
No. You have to Spend actions, usually a Standard Action, to maintain the Pin, otherwise your victim automatically escapes. Just the same as with maintaining a Grapple, because a Pin is a kind of Grapple.
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
Second: Do Grab allows you to do free automatic damage in every situation or only if you choose to take -20 penalty and don't get grappled condition?
Grab doesn't allow you do what I would call "free automatic damage." Grab lets you do 2 things. 1: it gives you a +4 on all your Grapple Checks. 2: After a successful attack with the thing that give you Grab, you get a Free Action Attack which you can use to Initiate a Grapple. And there is 2a: if you are willing to take a -20 on your Grapple Check, if your attack is successful, your opponent is Grappled, but you aren't.
You are probably thinking of Constrict, which does let you inflict damage with every successful Grapple Check.
If you have Greater Grapple you can maintain twice per round. But! Do you need to actually maintain your grapple (i.e. wait to the round after you initiate grapple when you need to maintain grapple) or you just have option to do another grapple check every time you have someone grappled and a free move action to spare (for example when you initiate grapple or brake someone's grapple and choose to become primary grappler)?
You don't have to wait. Greater Grapple says you get to make 2 checks/round to harm your opponent: 1 as a Standard Action, 1 as a Move Action.
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent)
The Grapple Rules in the Core Rulebook say that once a Grapple is Initiated, subsequent checks allow you to both maintain the Grapple and do those other harmful things: Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up.
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions... Move... Damage... Pin... Tie Up
Normally, every Grapple Check requires a Standard Action and has a Duration of 1 round. Normally, every Grapple check allows you maintain a Grapple from a previous round and do a grapple-related action. The first action you take has to be Initiate. You have to Pin your opponent before you can Tie Up your opponent.
But the whole point of Feats is that they give you special privileges. Greater Grapple lets you make a check as a Move Action. And it specifically allows you to make 2 checks/round. And the rules specifically say that once a Grapple has been Initiated, every successful check after that lets you do the other Grappling bad stuff.
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Fedorchik1536 |
Thanks!
[...]
You are probably thinking of Constrict, which does let you inflict damage with every successful Grapple Check.
No, I'm not.
Grab has this part (at least at d20pfsrd.org) in the description:[...]
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
And I'm not sure if it only concerns second option, or it is a free damage every time you grapple someone.
And is it an extra damage, similar to constrict, or it simply replaces every other grapple option available?![](/WebObjects/Frameworks/Ajax.framework/WebServerResources/wait30.gif)
DM Livgin |
![Dr Lucky](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Dr-Lucky-expression-2.jpg)
Grab allow you to do the damage listed under that attack for each successful grapple check in the following rounds.
So if a constrictor snake bit you and choose not to take the -20: it would deal damage, get it's free grapple check, and then deal constrict damage. The following round if it passed the check to maintain, and you didn't escape and it choose to pin you, you would be pinned and would take bite and constrict damage. The third round if it choose to maintain and deal damage: you would be pinned, it would deal bite damage from the damage option, it would deal bite damage from the grab ability, and it would deal constrict damage.
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Fedorchik1536 |
Grab allow you to do the damage listed under that attack for each successful grapple check in the following rounds.
So if a constrictor snake bit you and choose not to take the -20: it would deal damage, get it's free grapple check, and then deal constrict damage. The following round if it passed the check to maintain, and you didn't escape and it choose to pin you, you would be pinned and would take bite and constrict damage. The third round if it choose to maintain and deal damage: you would be pinned, it would deal bite damage from the damage option, it would deal bite damage from the grab ability, and it would deal constrict damage.
This looks like what I imagine this should work. But there are people who say that Grab only works this way if you choose to take -20 penalty because Grab ability says about dealing damage only when you maintain the hold. Which is than linked to earlier sentence from Grab description:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
Another question - does bonus damage comes online only if you initiate grappling through grab ability or it works no matter how grapple started?
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DM Livgin |
![Dr Lucky](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Dr-Lucky-expression-2.jpg)
The -20 is an option rather than a requirement, but others can argue semantics on that.
... each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.
You only get grab damage for the grab attack that established the hold.