My trigger doesn't ignore any rules of the game. There are no limits set as to what is or is not a "condition" for a readied action.
My trigger doesn't ignore any rules of the game. There are no limits set as to what is or is not a "condition" for a readied action.
your trigger doesn't exist in the game because the game doesn't account for being partially in squares. welcome to rule 0.
And if you'd like another way of doing this, a free action can be performed at any point during another action. So set a trigger to 5 foot step when my ally says "go". The ally moves into my space and just before stopping says "go". This triggers my 5 foot step off of his free action instead of his move action, and since he's already almost finished the move out by the time of his free action, he is no longer occupying the space.
You keep trying to change the trigger so that it happens before T leaves his square.false. i've done no such thing. you keep changing the triggering action. i already admitted that RAW doesn't really specify what the triggering action can be. that's why we got creative before with triggering actions, and i've never objected to you changing what the triggering action is. i've only argued that the originally presented scenario cannot be done because the triggering action there was "when D take a 5 foot step backward" and as you point outThen I'll apologize if I've not been clear. I've never intended to defend the specifics of the OP, just that two characters can swap spots within the RAW. If you agree, then there's nothing we need to debate.
ah well yes, that's certainly doable. and i also agree that you shouldn't have to get so creative with phrasing because as soon as you do, we've clearly established a way to do it and should just let it happen.
And if you'd like another way of doing this, a free action can be performed at any point during another action. So set a trigger to 5 foot step when my ally says "go". The ally moves into my space and just before stopping says "go". This triggers my 5 foot step off of his free action instead of his move action, and since he's already started the move out by the free action, he is no longer occupying the space.
we've already established that there are several ways to phrase this to appease and overly pedantic GM. i was only objecting to your use of partially occupied squares.
In the absence of a partially occupied square, you would round down to 0, so the ally is not occupying any squares at the time of his move.
In the absence of a partially occupied square, you would round down to 0, so the ally is not occupying any squares at the time of his move.
citation?
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no, the point is RAW does not allow this, but we can all agree that any GM enforcing that is being overly pedantic.
edit: see my last post before this one for phrasing to satisfy such a GM.
RAW does allow the swap. Insisting on interpreting the rules in a way that imposes discontinuity when one would not logically exist is in violation of designers stating that the rules are to be interpreted with "common sense."
D readies an action to move before T attacks. T takes a 5' step and attacks. Neither character finishes their turn in an occupied square.
RAW don't allow it and my common sense say that you can't do it without provoking unless you have some specific training i.e. the appropriate teamwork feat).
Switching you position with another person while fighting with someone isn't easy at all. common sense say that, differently from our characters, people don't have 360° vision, so checking your ally position and movement expose you to your enemy attacks.As was said be a few posters D would have to leave his square before T can step in it. And D can't end his move in D square he can't take a 5' step (AFAIK you can't take a 5' step in an invalid location on the basis of "but special circumstances will make it a valid location after I have moved"). So, unless there it another valid square he would have to start a normal move, so that he can reach a square behind D (if he take a 5' step he end his move in a invalid square and return immediately to the starting square).
After he has vacated his starting square T can take his readied action of "when D square is empty I take a 5' step to fill it (eventually together with a standard action)".
That action interrupt but don't end D movement, so after T has make his 5' step he can complete his movement in the square he prefer.
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You just ready to 5 foot step into your ally's square when he leaves his square. Then your ally begins a move through your square, then your readied action resolves and the ally chooses to end his move in your old square as a 5 foot step.
You can't decide that your move action is a 5' step after starting it as a move action.
And you can't start a 5' step if it put you in a invalid square.You can move only 5' with a move action, but it is still a move action.
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right; a GM can allow something the rules as written don't allow... but that doesn't change that RAW there is no way to do what you're talking about. a GM can rule that it's fine, but anything that goes back to rule 0 is a thing you can expect table variation on.The rules do allow it. I'll repeat the steps that are 100% RAW.
D readies a backward 5' step before T attacks E.
T takes a 5' step and then attacks E.
D's readied action is triggered after T's 5's step, but before T actually attacks.
Neither character ends their turn in an occupied square.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.
Movement, not turn!
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So... by the rules:
1) Two PC in a closed room 10x5 can't swap their place. They will be forever in the square they are in the beginning. Right?
You miss a few words: "During combat", "without any way to leave the room" and "without provoking".
The right phrase is:
"During combat Two PC in a closed room 10x5 without any way to leave the room can't swap their place. They will be forever in the square they are in the beginning."
The question is who or what they are figthing. A swarm?
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RAW don't allow it and my common sense say that you can't do it without provoking unless you have some specific training i.e. the appropriate teamwork feat).
Switching you position with another person while fighting with someone isn't easy at all. common sense say that, differently from our characters, people don't have 360° vision, so checking your ally position and movement expose you to your enemy attacks.None of this is based on RAW, so you're entitled to your opinion.
But for the record, athletes in team sports frequently swap positions in less than 50 square feet of space, it's called switching a screen in basketball and that happens in less than a 10' square. Football defensive line men perform"stunts" in which they swap places after the ball is snapped. The corresponding offensive linemen sometimes do the same swap. So common sense says it's not an issue for trained soldiers. You don't need 360 degree vision to hear/feel/sense someone is behind you. Characters don't fill up a 5'x5' square, they tactically control it. So T has plenty of room with which to enter D's square unless D is a gelatinous cube, proven by the fact that I can move through an ally occupied square without issue, regardless of what direction I am approaching or whether the ally is engaged in combat.
A playing field is "a little" more safe than a battlefield and way smoother, but players are still tripping, losing the ball or having it stolen. And how many hours of training they do playing together exactly those moves? That is special training in doing exactly that. Most team players have the equivalent of several teamwork feats.
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Nobody ends their movement in an occupied square. That's already been covered. There is no rule that says a character can't initiate movement into an illegal square. RAW says you can't "end movement." If you want to be hyperpedantic, then the rules work against you.
Movement, not turn!
You read "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" as a permission of moving in a illegal square. You are really incredible.
How about the trigger, "After D has entered my square, step forward 5' and attack (or whatever standard action he can do)".
T readies
D 5' steps back into T's square.
T ready action goes off BEFORE D ends his move and T steps forward
D movement ends
You read "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" as a permission of moving in a illegal square. You are really incredible.Nobody ends their movement in an occupied square. That's already been covered. There is no rule that says a character can't initiate movement into an illegal square. RAW says you can't "end movement." If you want to be hyperpedantic, then the rules work against you.
Movement, not turn!
as far as i know, there is nothing that stops you from declaring your intent to move into a square that is currently occupied if you know that it won't be when you get there. it, admittedly, gave me pause, but unless you can cite the RAW that forbids it, it's legal.
unless you're tired of Paizo making feats to let you do things you were already doing before there was a feat for it... in which case, just swap places.
there's really no good reason (especially since you can talk on anyone's turn) that two characters shouldn't be able to coordinate and accomplish this.
i'm sorry; i must have missed the part of the RAW that insist that the ruleset is strictly permissive and that this isn't a thing you can do. the inference that a feat allowing you to do it means per RAW you can't is exactly that. inferences aren't RAW.
and i didn't say we weren't here to discuss rule 0. i said that this falls to rule 0. if that's true, the discussion is over. you're insisting it is not rule 0 territory.
The feat doesn't have much to do with this. The feat allows you to swap places on your turn, where the readied action requires you to wait until your ally's turn. They are not the same.
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as far as i know, there is nothing that stops you from declaring your intent to move into a square that is currently occupied if you know that it won't be when you get there. it, admittedly, gave me pause, but unless you can cite the RAW that forbids it, it's legal.You read "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" as a permission of moving in a illegal square. You are really incredible.Nobody ends their movement in an occupied square. That's already been covered. There is no rule that says a character can't initiate movement into an illegal square. RAW says you can't "end movement." If you want to be hyperpedantic, then the rules work against you.
Movement, not turn!
You need a RAW that say that you can't voluntarily move to a invalid square?
The checks is simple:- when you move the target square is a valid square for teh kind of move you are takin?
- reply: No, it is not a valid target for a 5' step as it is occupied. It is a valid target for the first square of a regular move as you can continue your movement after entering it.
Look how it work:
D take a 5' step in T square
T has a readied action to move in T square as soon as it is empty
D complete its 5' step, verify if the movement is valid, it isn't, and he is moved back to his starting square
Even if T has a readied action to move to D square as soon as it is empty, that square become empty only after D 5' step has been completed, but the completion of D move is the check if he end his movement in a valid square, so D starting square is never empty.
Now bot D and T go to D starting square
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Declaring something that you can not do is either not legal or has not effect.
If a turtle falls over a cliff, and declares she flies, the GM should say 'Ok." and she will keep falling. The same way, if a character declares she moves into someone's square, as that is not a valid option of movement, she will move as much as the falling turtle flew, nothing.
That's a disanalogy. An accurate analogy is the turtle flaps its arms and then suddenly finds it can fly. T initiates a 5' step into D's square. Before T's movement ends, the square is unoccupied. Nothing illegal happens.
To accomplish the "Swap places" feat, get the FeatThe feat is not simply for swapping places. 1 - the ally moves as an "immediate" action, and 2 - the movement doesn't count against the ally's movement for that round. Neither of these is true without the feat.
Just as the Two-Weapon fighting feat isn't needed to fight with two weapons, the Swap Places feat is not needed to swap places, it simply allows you to do it with less cost/penalty.
If D space is empty before T move end, T starting square is not empty has T hasn't yet moved from it.
2 characters 2 occupied spaces.
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Regarding using readied move or 5' step actions to swap places with other characters:
I think the GM would probably allow it, if you asked. PFS or otherwise, it's just a reasonable request in most situations.
That said, I also think it is very technically against the rules. There are feats for this, if you want to do it within the rules.
That said, I also think it is very technically against the rules. There are feats for this, if you want to do it within the rules.
the inference that a feat allowing you to do it means per RAW you can't is exactly that. inferences aren't RAW.
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That said, I also think it is very technically against the rules. There are feats for this, if you want to do it within the rules.
the inference that a feat allowing you to do it means per RAW you can't is exactly that. inferences aren't RAW.
Unrelated. I think it is technically against the rules to attempt swap places normally via readied actions. I also think just about any GM would allow it, if asked, despite this minor technicality.
Regarding the feats, I think if you don't want to have to ask the GM, you can use the feats. Asking the GM is within the rules, and the issue isn't one of logic, but one of rule technicalities. The issue is turn order and occupying space, as use of readied actions temporarily can interupt an ally, but cannot actually occupy the same instance. So the spaces are always going to be occupied each time the player tries to move, as it will halt the other player's turn.
It's really not much different than dancing with another person, but the combat rules don't really allow this sort of thing. It's a technicality within the rules, but not really an intended thing to ban. So, as before, just ask the GM. The GM will very likely allow it.
And specifically regarding Swap Places, there is no readied action here. You move as a move action and the ally with the feat moves as an immediate action. So, it really isn't the same thing. But, if you were very opposed to asking the GM, this would be your option for swapping places.
Look how it work:
D take a 5' step in T square
T has a readied action to move in T square as soon as it is empty
D complete its 5' step, verify if the movement is valid, it isn't, and he is moved back to his starting square
Even if T has a readied action to move to D square as soon as it is empty, that square become empty only after D 5' step has been completed, but the completion of D move is the check if he end his movement in a valid square, so D starting square is never empty.Now bot D and T go to D starting square
As far as I know, there is no RAW for exact order of operation as you describe. So I disagree with "D complete its 5' step, verify if the movement is valid, it isn't, and he is moved back to his starting square". Why couldn't a readied action interrupt D's turn between the action of movement and the determination of it ending in an illegal square? What RAW prevents it?
As for those who say you can't declare an illegal move. If my character declares he is taking a 5' step to a square which contains an invisible creature (that my character is unaware of), is my 5' step used up or not?
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That said, I also think it is very technically against the rules. There are feats for this, if you want to do it within the rules.
"Technically" it's not against the rules.
1. The rules unequivocally state that you cannot end your movement in an illegal space.2. Technically, the rules don't stop you from beginning a move into an occupied space, the rules stop you from ending your move in an occupied space.
3. Technically, the readied action allows D to interrupt T after T has started moving into D's square, but before T stops moving.
4. Technically T is in D's square but D moves into T's vacated square before T ends T's movement because that's exactly what the Readied action can do, as demonstrated by interrupting spell casters after they start casting the spell, but before they complete it. It is the very example of using the Readied Action to disrupt a spell that allows us to technically swap places be having D move before T technically stops moving.
Technically, the rules allow this. GMs can ignore this technicality and invent rules like claiming that trying to move into an occupied space is illegal, because technically, there is no rule that states this. This action does not duplicate the feat. The feat allows D to swap places by expending an immediate action while retaining full movement. Without the feat, D has to use a Standard action and cannot move beyond the 5' step.
Technically there isn't a time in which T square is empty but he hasn't moved in D square.
So all you argument is invalid.
Valandil, read a bit further. Two paragraphs ahead: accidentally ending your move on an occupied space -as per not seeing an invisible whatsoever-.
So yes: your 5' step would be used and you will get back to your former square.
which doesn't change that they legally declared an illegal move. so... you can do that.
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That said, I also think it is very technically against the rules.
"Technically"
You keep dwelling on that phrase. My use of it is just because although I do believe it is against the rules as a technicality, I also think that reasonable GMs would allow it in most situations. So I'd consider it a blue law in respect for the rules.
The reason you can't do it is more a byproduct of combat being "turn-based" and less about any logical reason it can't be done.
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On the contrary, your statement is what "technically" allows T and D to swap places. Why? Because "technically" D can use the Readied action to complete D's move into T's empty square before T complete's T's movement. It's precisely because the Readied Action can create a space between spell start and and spell complete, regardless of the spell's actual casting time, is why I can complete an action before T stops moving, but after T has left T's square. "Technically" there are infinite points in time before the completion of Trigger action in which a Readied Action can complete.Technically there isn't a time in which T square is empty but he hasn't moved in D square.
So all you argument is invalid.
So, your logic is that player 1 moves into player 2's space which is occupied, but then the readied action permits player 1 to "hang there" while player 2 uses a readied move action to move into the now unoccupied space? Then player 1 "finishes" their move by remaining in the now unoccupied space.
In reading the readied action rules, I don't think they permit you to allow characters to "hang" in illegal spaces just because their action was interrupted. I think having an official rule here creates a dangerous precedence.
I would leave this one as an "ask the GM" answer because while swapping places is reasonable, I can certainly see ways that officially allowing "incomplete" moves could create problems in a game mechanic capacity.
I would probably just 'ready an action' to perform the "Reposition" maneuver, and the other guy allow himself to be moved. Then the other guy base his 'ready action' on being moved with reposition.
The result is virtually the same, and I don't see a problem with either interpretation.
YIDM
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I would probably just 'ready an action' to perform the "Reposition" maneuver, and the other guy allow himself to be moved. Then the other guy base his 'ready action' on being moved with reposition.
The result is virtually the same, and I don't see a problem with either interpretation.
YIDM
Except re-position is a standard action. They want to do it as a free action via 5' step. Doing it as readied move action also creates the same issues.
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You keep dwelling on that phrase. My use of it is just because although I do believe it is against the rules as a technicality, I also think that reasonable GMs would allow it in most situations. So I'd consider it a blue law in respect for the rules.I understand. I am simply trying to make the counter-point that when we examine the rules with a magnifying glass and focus on being hyper-technical about what the rules allow and don't allow, the rules allow it.
Think of it this way:
- We both agree that two characters should be able to swap places in a round given some combination of actions.
- You're pointing out that the technical and limited nature of the rules would actually prohibit this.
- I'm pointing out that if you truly get technical, to an absurd level, the rules allow it.
They can do it, what they can't do is to do that while both using a 5' step to move.
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I would probably just 'ready an action' to perform the "Reposition" maneuver, and the other guy allow himself to be moved. Then the other guy base his 'ready action' on being moved with reposition.
The result is virtually the same, and I don't see a problem with either interpretation.
YIDM
Except re-position is a standard action. They want to do it as a free action via 5' step. Doing it as readied move action also creates the same issues.
Lol, my mistake here. I always forget this bit:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
So even if you intend a 5' step, it is still a standard action to ready it.
Functionally, the Reposition maneuver is the most appropriate rule option for swapping places as a readied action. YIDM has it right.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
you can ready some other standard action and still 5 ft. step.