The Veil Spell and multiple targets with different "looks".

[potent]

Hello folks,

Veil 6th level spell. Illusion (glamer)

"You instantly change the appearance of the subjects and then maintain that appearance for the spell's duration. You can make the subjects appear to be anything you wish. The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble."

My question:

Lets say that there are 10 targets that could be affected by veil, both friends and foes. When casting this spell can I control for each target what creature they will look like. One will look like a dog, one cat, 2 bats, 2 ogres etc.? Or do they all have look like the same creature?

Another example.
Lets say that my party of 5 humans meets a group of 5 ogres. Could I cast veil once and make us humans look like Ogres and the Ogres look human? (following up with mass suggestion to suggest that take care of their enemies quickly).

What do you guys think?

[Buri Reborn]

Unfortunately, that wording implies that it has a static appearance that is the same for all observers. This spell is a glamor. The type of illusion you'd be looking for appears to be a pattern.

Quote:

Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

[Pizza Lord]

I know in previous versions there was an example line that said, 'You could appear as a band of pixies being lead by a treant' for instance. I don't know if the Core Rulebook has that line it, since I think the PRD and SRD cut examples out expressly. I tend to rule in favor of specific looks for each target, but that's probably from my memory of previous editions.

I would have to hope that if they removed the example because they wanted to change the spell (nothing else of which is altered) they would have taken the time to state all targets appear the same, since that's the opposite of how it worked. I tend to believe the examples have just been excised.

[Diego Rossi]

Buri Reborn wrote:

Unfortunately, that wording implies that it has a static appearance that is the same for all observers. This spell is a glamor. The type of illusion you'd be looking for appears to be a pattern.

Quote:

Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

I think you are replying to something different from what he asked.

@potent: Yes, you can have character A appear to be an ogre, B a elf, C a rat and enemies 1 and 2 dogs and 3 a cat. As Buri said that appearance is the same for all observers, but you can select a specific appearance for each target.

[Buri Reborn]

You're right, Diego. I did misread it, if that's the case.

[Firewarrior44]

Can Veil make you/others invisible? Invisibility is a glamer so i'm curious.

[Buri Reborn]

I don't see why not. Plus, it's not like it's really one-upping mass invisibility given its 30 foot limitation compared to 180 feet and is only one level different.

[Ravingdork]

Veil can only make creatures look like other creatures.

Veil wrote:

The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble.

[Vatras]

Illusiona create sound, sight and smell, but they don't make you invisible, unless they specifically say so. You have invisibility for that.

Regarding Veil: that would be a totally useless spell, if all the targets would look the same, wouldn't it? It used to be one of the top illusion spells in 1E, and was only available to the illusionist class.

But it is only an illusion, so making large creatures appear small can be a problem and may warn people. Just think of the effect of an ogre looking like a hobbit trying to get into a halfling hose.
It works best as a tool for infiltration, especially if the user has the necessary skills to carry off a deception (language, dialect, manner of speech, the right gestures and body language). Since this can lead to less dramatic and abrupt showdowns, some DMs won't be happy with it, though :)

[GinoA]

Quicklings, Invisible Stalkers, Pixies, Will-o-Wisps, ...

[Firewarrior44]

Buri Reborn wrote:

I don't see why not. Plus, it's not like it's really one-upping mass invisibility given its 30 foot limitation compared to 180 feet and is only one level different.

Well you don't become unveil'd (hehe) when you move more than 30 feet away as the spell's already been cast and magic is running no? Mass invis has that specific limitation. Also as far as I can tell it technically wouldn't end when you attacked.

Also Hours + concentration per level opposed to minutes. But significantly less targets.

[potent]

Thank you guys, this has been very informative :)

[Ravingdork]

As has been said, you can't turn invisible unless the illusion spell in question specifically says you can. However, I see no problem with veiling the party to look like a gang of invisible stalkers. ;P

[Pizza Lord]

This is the part where illusion magic gets mind-bending. Unless the spell says that it makes something invisible (invisibility), it doesn't. It can make something look like something else, but that's not the same. You can make a giant look like a sprite, and you figure that means that the giant's head and torso and arms and legs are invisible, but they aren't 'technically'. He would be harder to see, like with a bonus to his hide check for being smaller.

You could make someone look like a will-o-wisp or invisible stalker or a pixie, but that wouldn't make them invisible. You would just have a group of non-invisible invisible stalkers (which I believe look like shapeless forms.) Also, you would have to know what an invisible stalker actually looks like for that to be a valid option in any case.

Similarly, you could make your party look like nereids and gargoyles but they aren't going to be transparent in water or blend into stonework. A GM could give a bonus to Stealth checks (like +2) if so inclined, but that's not the same as a gargoyle's actual +6 racial bonus to Stealth.

[Buri Reborn]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Unless the spell says that it makes something invisible (invisibility), it doesn't.

Is there a rules reference for this restriction? The spell itself is pretty wide open in potential. Plus, the type itself specifically calls it out.

Quote:

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

[Pizza Lord]

Quote:

Plus, the type itself specifically calls it out.

Yes, just because a spell is an Illusion (glamer) does not mean it can do all of that. You will have to find the specifics in each spell if you can. Some glamers cannot affect taste. Some only affect sound. Some only make targets invisible but do not alter any other effects. Some glamers make an object appear to be something it is not.

A silent image could make an illusion of a window in a wall, and you might think you were looking at the other side of it, but what you see isn't actually the other side of the wall. Even if the illusion that appears to be on the side of the illusory window is completely accurate (somehow), that doesn't mean that the glamer has made the wall invisible.

So yes, making things invisible is within the power of a glamer, but that doesn't mean that all glamers can make things invisible. Just like displacement makes you seem 2 feet or so away from your actual location, it hasn't actually made you invisible, the observer just perceives you in a different way.

[Buri Reborn]

Certainly, spells work within their confines. However, veil does not confine itself in this way. It simply makes you look like something else. As Ravingdork mentioned, an invisible stalker that is actually invisible is within the RAW confines of the spell. At your table, rule as you wish. However, this is a rules question, and without a rules restriction, it is personal judgement that prevents this scenario and not the rules.

[Pizza Lord]

It is within the rules, based on the spell's effect and what it does. This particular glamer (veil) does not make things invisible. It makes things look like something else (as well as feel and smell). Invisibility is a glamer that makes things invisible, it does not make them look like something else. That isn't a houserule, that's how the spells work.

If you have a crate with an urn inside it, you can use an illusion (glamer) spell, like invisibility, to make it invisible (because the spell says it can.) That doesn't mean people can see the urn inside it and it doesn't mean it looks like a panda bear to someone with see invisibility.

You can also use an illusion (glamer) spell, like silent image to make that crate look like a table. Even though it now looks like a table and has four legs and you can apparently see under it, you still can't see the urn inside the crate. In fact, looking at that crate with see invisibiloty will have absolutely no effect on your ability to see the actual walls of the glamered crate even though they would seem to be invisible. Not a single bonus to disbelief nor even a granted chance to. Nor will invisibility purge reveal the crate. The glamer doesn't make it invisible, it shields and hides the target's true form.

The veil spell does not make you an invisible creature. You cannot look like an invisible treant. Invisible stalkers have forms that are naturally invisible, like the wind. While they are not subject to effects like invisibility purge, they say nothing of see invisibility or its ability to locate them (it also doesn't say what they look like to those who can view them, but that's an artistic/design failing.) They have substance, they have volume and mass. Same thing with a pixie or a will-o-wisp. Those creatures have appearance, they have form, they can just be invisible as much as they wish. You can look like a will-o-wisp, but that doesn't mean you can turn invisible when frightened or panicked.

Since making illusions believable hinge on being experiences that you've had (not unlike trying to duplicate a language you don't speak, even if you've heard people speaking that language around you), if your ruling is that invisible stalkers have no visual quality, then making someone veiled as an invisible stalker will not give them that quality. They can smell or sound or feel like one (What do they feel like? Guess that depends on their form), then you can't glamer it.
"Have you seen a goose? Then you can make a believable-looking goose." "Have you seen a swan? No, but you've heard it looks like a goose... Then you can't make a believable-looking swan that will fool anyone who's seen a swan."

Similarly, you may have felt the wind of a breeze. You may have seen its effects on things around you. You may have experienced the smell of the scents it carried to you (but is that the actual smell of the wind?) As such, you can create an illusion of a force like the wind of a breeze, but you can't make a visual 'wind'. You could try making a tornado or a dust devil if you've seen one, but that's not a breeze and clearly trying to emulate a breeze with a visual like that would be quite jarring and unbelievable to someone within it. Similarly, you could make the breeze smell like fresh lawn-clippings, or petunias, or rotting fish. That may or may not be what wind smells like and that may or may not fit the surroundings (but you still must know what those smell like.)

So it's a moot point if you're trying to create an illusion that makes you look like something, that you claim doesn't look like anything, even if you smell or feel like that object, it's not going to work. The description of an invisible stalker doesn't say it has no has no form, it has no discernible form based on a description from a typical observer's point-of-view, ie. most people can't see invisible things. If it were meant to be interpreted by a bat or an ooze, I'm sure they would describe an invisible stalker differently and it would probably have a different name, ie... 'Not-an-invisible Stalker.'

Using veil does not grant you a creature's Extraordinary abilities, including Natural invisibility. As for whether an invisible stalker is a man-shaped swirl of mist or a 5-foot square billow of cloud that pummels foes with wind-like force or each one is an individual snowflake in shape is up to the GM. Veil will not make you invisible.

[Firelock]

Ravingdork wrote:

Veil can only make creatures look like other creatures.

Veil wrote:

The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble.

Sorry for late reply, but I'm currently researching illusions and I have a question about Veil related to this.

By the way RD, I've been reading a lot of posts here about illusions spells and seen that you've posted several times about your frustrations with the wording of illusion spells dating all the way back to 2012 I think - just want to say dude that I feel your pain!

Ok here's my question:

The spell description for Veil literally contradicts itself when it says you can make the subjects appear to be "anything you wish" and then "just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble". Notice the wording "anything" not "any creature".

So which is it? Anything I want, or just creatures? The description seems to me to be saying that if you wanted to look like a creature, you can, not that you can ONLY look like another creature, probably because of lower level illusion spells like Alter Self etc. But why couldn't you make yourself look like a chair or a bookshelf if you wanted to? If you don't think it should work this way, is there any other illusion spell that does allow that?

[Plausible Pseudonym]

An animated object is a creature, so there's no contradiction. You can look like the Death Star functioning as a (really) Collosal animated object. Technically.

[Tacticslion]

Hah!

[Plausible Pseudonym]

That's no moon, it's Joe the wizard!

[Ravingdork]

lol. *Rolls eyes*

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Yeah, it's not realistic that you could see an illusion of a moon, given the distance penalties to your perception roll.

[Ravingdork]

I could be a very small illusion, set much closer so as to create an illusion of a distant moon. Heh.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

That's no moon, it's Joe the wizard!

(Face palm) I can't believe I missed the bloatmage joke.

[Firelock]

It's a wonder anyone can see the moon at all, if you apply distance penalties. But then I guess the moon probably isn't actually trying to hide.

...or is he?

[Plausible Pseudonym]

I just realized you can do some incredibly hilarious things with Veil+Prying Eyes. If you're boring you can disguise them as birds or mice to reduce their chance of being identified while they scout.

If you want something exciting you make them look like Colossal dragons (or Kaiju!) and send them flying across the sky in all directions as a diversion.