2nd part of the spellsong feat,any progress on how it works?

[Meager Rolmug]

Benefit: You can combine your bardic performance and your spellcasting in two ways.

First, you can conceal the activity of casting a bard spell by masking it in a performance. As a swift action, you may combine your casting time of a spell with a Perform check. Observers must make a Perception or Sense Motive check opposed by your Perform check to realize you are also casting a spell. This uses 1 round of your bardic performance ability, regardless of the spell's casting time.

Second, as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration. You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.

Many threads without any decent conclusions.

To maintain a concentration spell without a standard action each round....

1.Does it require a move action EACH round or only first?
2.Does it burn a round of bardic performance EACH round or only the first?
3.Can it be/does it have to be somehow combined with a BP already known by the bard? I.E. inspire courage.

[Meager Rolmug]

What makes sense to me balance-wise is....
1. each round
2. only the first
3. it can ONLY be combined with an ongoing BP.

example uses:
1st round.... standard action=start inspire courage
2nd round.... free action=maintain inspire courage, standard action=cast silent image.
3rd round.... free action=maintain inspire courage, move action + extra round of BP=concentrate on silent image, standard action=cast hideous laughter.
4th round.... free action=maintain inspire courage, move action=concentrate on silent image, standard action=cast grease.

[Meager Rolmug]

" You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of."

In my above 4 round example the silent image spell would end when the bard quit maintaining inspire courage, BUT if he had NOT used his standard actions to cast other spells(I.E. other move actions, to shoot an arrow, take full defense, etc.), he could maintain the silent image after inspire courage was down the normal way.

[Meager Rolmug]

bump

[Blymurkla]

Er, I don't know. One of my NPCs has Spellsong, but I never questioned how it worked. Though the NPC haven't used it in action yet, so I haven't had to understand it completely either.

Spellsong wrote:

Second, as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration. You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.

What bugs me is the part about casting another spell.

Read separately, I'd interpret the line »as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration« that one move action and one round of bardic performance maintains the spell for one round.

However, I read the second part as: if you cast another spell in the same round as you use the move action, the concentration spell is maintained until you end the of the bardic performance.

But that seems weird.

[Cavall]

I'm reading it as it's own special kind of performance. Takes a move to start and costs one a round. So it won't stack with other songs but only needs a move action. To start.

[Blymurkla]

Cavall wrote:

I'm reading it as it's own special kind of performance. Takes a move to start and costs one a round. So it won't stack with other songs but only needs a move action. To start.

I can see how you can read that.

But it does say »your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.«. The spell is part of a bardic performance, not its own performance, is it not?

[Meager Rolmug]

Blymurkla wrote:

Cavall wrote:

I'm reading it as it's own special kind of performance. Takes a move to start and costs one a round. So it won't stack with other songs but only needs a move action. To start.

I can see how you can read that.

But it does say »your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.«. The spell is part of a bardic performance, not its own performance, is it not?

Yeah, exactly.

[Meager Rolmug]

I slept on it and now I think it takes a move action and an extra round of BP each round to maintain concentration in order to free up a standard action. The reason being the feat already does some semi-powerful stuff in its first part...therefore the second part can't be very powerful.

That being said, the choice of either using a standard action or a move action + extra round BP is still useful. It makes concentration spells more viable(and bards get access to quite a few).

Consider the following example...bard has inspire courage going and wants to distract some enemies with minor image. Bard casts it. The bard's image is doing a great job tying up two enemies chasing a figment around, but than a third enemy gets in his face. The bard can than keep the image up while taking full defense(as a standard action). The third enemy wiffs repeatedly and the bard has successfully burned up the actions of three of the enemies(and taken no damage) while his allies cut down the rest.

My interpretation is probably the least powerful and most restrictive...which should mean GM's would have no problem with it. But still useful enough to bards of the right build that can use both parts of the feat.

[tchrman35]

I'm of the opinion that the bard can either maintain an inspirational song or maintain a concentration spell, but not both. The bardic performance entry specifically states that a bard can maintain any one of the performances he knows. I can't imagine this feat changing that without its being directly stated.

This is a great feat to have, though. The possibilities are tremendous! If you got attacked while maintaining the spell, would you have to make a concentration check or a performance check? I honestly wish it was spelled out a little better.

How would this feat interact with lingering performance?

[tchrman35]

Meager Rolmug wrote:

Blymurkla wrote:

Cavall wrote:

I'm reading it as it's own special kind of performance. Takes a move to start and costs one a round. So it won't stack with other songs but only needs a move action. To start.

I can see how you can read that.

But it does say »your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.«. The spell is part of a bardic performance, not its own performance, is it not?

Yeah, exactly.

I wouldn't read too much into that. A bard can just perform without imparting magic to it. So "performance the spell is a part of" is just a way to reference the performance. I don't think it implies that you have two kinds of performances going at once.

[Meager Rolmug]

tchrman35 wrote:

I'm of the opinion that the bard can either maintain an inspirational song or maintain a concentration spell, but not both. The bardic performance entry specifically states that a bard can maintain any one of the performances he knows. I can't imagine this feat changing that without its being directly stated.

This is a great feat to have, though. The possibilities are tremendous! If you got attacked while maintaining the spell, would you have to make a concentration check or a performance check? I honestly wish it was spelled out a little better.

I DONNOT believe it is it's own bardic performance, because it has none of the items usually included in a descrition of a BP or even a masterpiece. It does not describe it as Su, Ex, or Sp. It does not require minimum # of ranks in a perform skill. It does not suggest it is a new type of performance anywhere in the feat description. It does not state the move action is to start or to maintain SOMETHING, only that:

"as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration"

It is like any other move action...it does was it says it does, but as the feat describes earlier:

"Benefit: You can combine your bardic performance and your spellcasting in two ways."

So a bardic performance must be up and running to use this move action.

[tchrman35]

Bard PRD wrote:

A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.

Spellsong PRD wrote:

Second, as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration. You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.

It seems plain as punch to me that you can't inspire competence, inspire courage, countersong, fascinate, or anything else while you spellsong.

Spellsong PRD wrote:

Benefit: You can combine your bardic performance and your spellcasting in two ways.

Your quote only means you can use bardic performance to augment spellcasting. NOT that you can simultaneously use it to do something else. Having two kinds of performance going at once violates a primary tenet of Bardic Performance. I don't buy it.

Anyway, I've said my piece. The rules are pretty clear.

[Meager Rolmug]

tchrman35 wrote:

Bard PRD wrote:

A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.

Spellsong PRD wrote:

Second, as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration. You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.

It seems plain as punch to me that you can't inspire competence, inspire courage, countersong, fascinate, or anything else while you spellsong.

Spellsong PRD wrote:

Benefit: You can combine your bardic performance and your spellcasting in two ways.

Your quote only means you can use bardic performance to augment spellcasting. NOT that you can simultaneously use it to do something else. Having two kinds of performance going at once violates a primary tenet of Bardic Performance. I don't buy it.

Anyway, I've said my piece. The rules are pretty clear.

None of that applies if spellsong doesn't give a new performance. I know a bard can't have 2 performances up at once. You are refuting something noone implied in this thread. There are bardic performances and masterpieces that use more than one round of BP during a single round, that in itself certainly doesn't mean 2 bardic performances are up and running.

And you have not addressed at all the reasons I site for why it isn't a new type of bardic performance...I have to wonder if you even read them.

I capitalized DONNOT only so people wouldn't miss the "not" part ...as that would change my meaning very much. I did not mean to sound snotty, though I did manage to misspell it.

[tchrman35]

Meager Rolmug wrote:

I DONNOT believe it is it's own bardic performance, because it has none of the items usually included in a descrition of a BP or even a masterpiece.

Well, you're right that it's not a new kind of performance as in perform(oratory). Nobody ever said that. That's why I ignored your masterpiece thing before. It doesn't apply.

As to why doesn't say spell like or supernatural, it's because it's part of casting a spell. So it would be part of the casting. If they have it supernatural, people would try to say therefore whatever spell didn't provoke. If they said spell like, people would argue that it provoked twice. It's part of a separate action. Concentration isn't an action type either.

continued wrote:

It does not describe it as Su, Ex, or Sp. It does not require minimum # of ranks in a perform skill. It does not suggest it is a new type of performance anywhere in the feat description. It does not state the move action is to start or to maintain SOMETHING, only that:

"as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration"

Here's my bottom line: you can't do two things with a performance at the same time. Period. This doesn't create an exception. It would be broken otherwise.

[Meager Rolmug]

tchrman35 wrote:

Meager Rolmug wrote:

I DONNOT believe it is it's own bardic performance, because it has none of the items usually included in a descrition of a BP or even a masterpiece.

Well, you're right that it's not a new kind of performance as in perform(oratory). Nobody ever said that. That's why I ignored your masterpiece thing before. It doesn't apply.

Let me try again, I am saying it is not a new "bardic performance". From the CRB

"Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level. "

I am not talking about the "perform skill" and neither(I believe) is the feat when it comes to the second part of the it.

Some people confuse the two. They think if a bard uses inspire courage, he is playing his flute or singing the whole time the BP is running. While in fact they are actually only using the "perform skill" during the standard action they used to start the BP and bardic magic takes over from there. As they get more experienced they can do this "starting" faster(move action at 7th level and swift at 14th).

[Meager Rolmug]

tchrman35 wrote:

As to why doesn't say spell like or supernatural, it's because it's part of casting a spell. So it would be part of the casting. If they have it supernatural, people would try to say therefore whatever spell didn't provoke. If they said spell like, people would argue that it provoked twice. It's part of a separate action. Concentration isn't an action type either.

"as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration"

The feat has nothing to do with "casting a spell", only maintaining one that has a duration of concentration. It just frees up your standard actions which are normally used to maintain the spell. You can than use that standard action for whatever purpose you normally do, INCUDING casting some spells. THAT is why it has the line

" You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of."

Notice the "You CAN cast another spell" part. As in if you want to use the freed up standard action to cast a spell, you can. You could also make a single attack, or attempt a cleave, or take total defense, or whatever. However if during the BP you do use the feat to cast a spell(that takes a standard action...

"your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of."

This is important since if all your freed standard actions are non spell-casting you can end the BP and continue to concentrate on the spell the normal way(using a standard action each round).

I have no idea why you said "Concentration isn't an action type either". But to clear it up for you...from the CRB in the magic section under duration...

"Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.

You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating."

Clearly we are talking about using different "action types" to maintain concentration on spells that have a DURATION of CONCENTRATION. The 2nd part of the feat does not pertain to any other situation at all.
from the feat...

"Second, as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration."

[tchrman35]

We were talking about spell like, supernatural, and extraordinary.

I'm done here. You're trying to take argument apart rather than listen. I'm not the best debater. But that doesn't make me wrong. Do whatever you want. It won't work my table.

[Meager Rolmug]

tchrman35 wrote:

Here's my bottom line: you can't do two things with a performance at the same time. Period. This doesn't create an exception. It would be broken otherwise.

Why not?? There are plenty of feats that add additional power/powers to a normal BP...

discordant voice, Improved Dirge of Doom, Greater Dirge of Doom, Inspired by Fear, and probably several other from sources I don't frequent.

[Meager Rolmug]

tchrman35 wrote:

We were talking about spell like, supernatural, and extraordinary.

I'm done here. You're trying to take argument apart rather than listen. I'm not the best debater. But that doesn't make me wrong. Do whatever you want. It won't work my table.

I have read and considered everything you have written. And have changed my mind about how the feat works partly because of what you wrote, just not in a way that agrees with you.

If you can't stand to have your reasons calmly refuted...well maybe GMing isn't for you. This is a cooperative game, not GM vs. player. And yes, not being able to refute another's logic while unable to explain your own doesn't automatically make you wrong, but it sure doesn't make you look right. And I for one would dislike to be at table where the GM appeared to be wrong, but stubbornly refused to change his rulings out of what appears to be spite.

[Saethori]

Bardic Performance in general desperately needs more rules clarifications. So much of its interactions are vague and in dire need of FAQs.

I, personally, am inclined to agree that you are melding your song with whatever your performance was at the time. Though I'm not certain if that means you have to spend extra rounds of performance and/or move actions... again, it's poorly clarified.

[tchrman35]

Meager Rolmug wrote:

tchrman35 wrote:

We were talking about spell like, supernatural, and extraordinary.

I'm done here. You're trying to take argument apart rather than listen. I'm not the best debater. But that doesn't make me wrong. Do whatever you want. It won't work my table.

I have read and considered everything you have written. And have changed my mind about how the feat works partly because of what you wrote, just not in a way that agrees with you.

If you can't stand to have your reasons calmly refuted...well maybe GMing isn't for you. This is a cooperative game, not GM vs. player. And yes, not being able to refute another's logic while unable to explain your own doesn't automatically make you wrong, but it sure doesn't make you look right. And I for one would dislike to be at table where the GM appeared to be wrong, but stubbornly refused to change his rulings out of what appears to be spite.

Well, you weren't really "calmy refuting" anything. You were casting aspersions "I wonder if you even read them," and being condescending. "Here, let me [wrongly] explain to you how bardic performance works."

I grow weary of such things. And you might not like being at my table.

Now then, to "calmy refute" your wall of text up there:

Meager Rolmug wrote:

The feat has nothing to do with "casting a spell", only maintaining one that has a duration of concentration. It just frees up your standard actions which are normally used to maintain the spell. You can than use that standard action for whatever purpose you normally do, INCUDING casting some spells. THAT is why it has the line

" You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of."

The first part of the feat has everything to do with casting a spell. The second part has to do with maintaining a spell. Both parts have to do with a portion of spellmaking. Both are part of a different action, so they receive that action's 'type' (su, sla, ex, or in this case, spell).

In addition, that line is SPECIFICALLY there to allow breaking a concentration rule, which you so kindly (and condescendingly) quoted above. Note how they very pointedly call out that they're breaking a general rule with a specific one.

Meager Rolmug wrote:

"your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of."

This is important since if all your freed standard actions are non spell-casting you can end the BP and continue to concentrate on the spell the normal way(using a standard action each round).

Actually, I see no reason you couldn't continue concentrating the normal way after casting a spell while you were spellsong-maintaining the spell. This feat SPECIFICALLY grants you the ability to have two actively-controlled spells simultaneously. They included a line SPECIFICALLY for that purpose. I see no reason you couldn't pick up the concentration normally.

Then there's the part that made me throw my hands up and say, "what a jerk" and walk away:

Meager Rolmug wrote:

I have no idea why you said "Concentration isn't an action type either". But to clear it up for you...from the CRB in the magic section under duration...

"Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.

You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating."

Clearly we are talking about using different "action types" to maintain concentration on spells that have a DURATION of CONCENTRATION. The 2nd part of the feat does not pertain to any other situation at all.
from the feat...

"Second, as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration."

Here's where I would've stopped listening at the table. You weren't trying to understand what I was saying. You jumped on "action type" and, rather than READ for some CONTEXT (I was out watching fireworks, not sitting at a computer, fwiw), you decided to jump to a really bizarre conclusion that I was talking about standard, move, swift, free, and immediate. But just walking back, geez, ten words, would've given you an answer. Instead you tried more condescension.

Then we moved to more character attacks and some claiming of high road in your most recent note.

I'm glad you read and considered everything. I find it hard to believe, when you can't look back ten words for context, but ok. Good for you.

I have no spite for you, and I bear you no ill-will. I make this ruling based on game mechanics alone. Not out of spite. You might not enjoy playing a game where being the loudest doesn't make you right. If I were on your table and you ruled the other way, I wouldn't take my dice and go home. It's my opinion that nothing's more boring for four people than watching two other people argue about something that wouldn't matter in ten minutes anyway. I'd accept your ruling and move on. I'd get my research going, make sure I had an ironclad case, then approach you with it later. I'd expect the same from any of my players. It sounds to me like you'd want to have this out while the fighter was waiting to make a vital strike blow. I'm just not going to waste everyone's time like that. Cast aspersions all you want.

Now then. As I was saying:

Nothing in the feat specifically gives you the ability to continue a different kind of bardic performance. If it did, the feat would specifically say so, just like it does for casting a spell. Specific beats general only works when the specific is stated SPECIFICALLY. This isn't, so it doesn't.

As to your examples, each of those feats modifies an existing performance (most of them dirge of doom). They make a specific performance do additional things. But they don't give you more performances at once. Some of the other performances do give you more performances at once. Suggestion, for example, gives you a suggestion in the midst of a fascinate. But it SPECIFICALLY says so. In each of those feats, it specifically calls out a performance (or a performance type - sp or su) and what it adds. This does not. It says "use your bardic performance to."

To allow the bard to combine it with another effect is to allow the bard to have THREE magical effects going simultaneously AT LEVEL 1.

R1: S: Begin bardic performance - Inspire Courage (1)
R2: F: Maintain S:Cast Silent Image (2)
R3: F: Maintain M: Spellsong concentrate S: Cast Silent Image (3)
R4: F: Maintain M: Spellsong concentrate S: Concentrate

You have your Inspire Courage, your first silent image (let's say you enclose your enemy in a 10x10 illusory box), and your second silent image (the water slowly filling up the box). Let's not start a fight about what constitutes proof of illusion; it's just an example, and I didn't want to think terribly hard about it.

It's OP. The bard already can have two. You're only paying the +1 to hit/dmg. It means you have to think tactically about when to start your dirge of doom at later levels, since once you drop it, it's no longer useful, but so what? Be tactical. Build characters who aren't gods. Make decisions.

<sigh>Listen. I'd love to chat more with you about this, but again, I'm not sure it would do any good. You seem bent on the idea that this feat allows more than it says it allows. When I say something you don't like, it seems like you'd rather think of me as an imbecile instead of considering that maybe I have a point. So I'm not sure how much more chatting will be useful.

It's impossible to prove a negative, so I'm in a bit of a hole here. But you haven't done anything that demonstrates to me the positive, that this ability grants you the power to have three concurrent magical effects that require your attention. I don't know what else to say.

[Meager Rolmug]

If you where reading my posts why did you repeatedly point out that a bard cannot have 2 BP at once in reply? I never implied they could, and I specifically said I didn't think spellsong created a new BP. Can you really fault me for wondering if you read my post?

As for the Su, Ex, Sp thing, I don't know how it could just be part of the spell AND be a new BP. I do not know any other examples. There are however many examples of BP that affect spells and they have there type(Su, Ex, Sp) listed. So why is it missing here? To me that is pretty good proof it is not new BP.

Seems your motivation is that my interpretation would be too powerful. I don't see how. The bard is trading a round of BP and a move action to get back a standard action. Burning up a precious limited resource SHOULD reward decently. And having to have a differ BP up is restrictive in some ways(namely that it would take a standard action to start at low levels AND concentration ends on the spell your using it on if you quit want to quit inspire courage before the conc. spell).

In your version the bard would have to forgo Inspire courage in favor of this new BP, hardly seems like it would be worth it the vast majority of the time.

As for me treating you dumb...I'm not buying it. You may have not have memorized the CRB parts I posted, we are all ignorant of some part of the pathfinder system. Your earliest posts suggested to me a misunderstanding of how BP works, many folks DO misunderstand it, it doesn't make them dumb.

I never meant to come off condescending, and if we were face to face I am sure you wouldn't have been affended...as I would have had a better feel for what you know, but I am ALSO posting for the greater audience. They may well appreciate not having to look up those parts of the CRB.

I also mean you no ill will, you may well be right about it being a new BP or something unique that still can't be combined with other BPs. It is easy to misunderstand someone's motivation in this format...it happens all the time, do to its limitations. You cannot hear the inflection of my voice, interrupt me to let me know I misinterpreted what you meant, or (and this is huge) exchange info. real time.